Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: April 26, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 11:42 PM UTC
Hi all
I've got some questions about gloss layers on models.
I've read you should add a layer of gloss on your vehicle before you apply a wash. I've never done this, and I think my washes do turn out good. What is this gloss layer for? And does it fully go away with some washes? What's the difference between applying a wash on a gloss and on a non-gloss surface?
Also, I've read you should apply some gloss on area's where you want to apply decals. Actually same question as above: does this gloss go away (with a wash?) And what is it for? What is the difference between applying a decal on a gloss surface and on a non-gloss surface.
Last but not least: what kind of gloss should I use for my models? I usually paint them in tamiya arcylics...
Just some things I think I need to know
Martin
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Uusimaa, Finland
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 12:08 AM UTC
According to what I''ve read, a gloss coat before washes helps the wash flow to corners and recesses and also makes it easier to wipe the extra wash off high points.
A gloss coat before applying decals is an absolute must. A matt coat is rough and when you apply a decal on it, air gets trapped between the model's surface and the decal, making it silver. A gloss coat is smooth and air doesn't get trapped there, so no silvering happens.
With dry transfers there's no need for gloss coats because there's no decal film that can silver.
A wash takes some gloss off, but you should always use a matt coat, because the surface will the patchy.
England - North West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 12:15 AM UTC
Martin, not being funy mate, but looking through your gallery your models almost invariably have 'silvering' on the decals. Laying down a gloss or even a satin coat would completely eliminate this as Eetu says. As for the wash, it not only helps the wash 'flow' better around details but also prevents the wash bleeding all over the surface. A matt surface acts like blotting paper and soaks up the wash, so it spreads out and looks like a stain. Try it, you'll be amazed at the results.
Vinnie
Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 12:28 AM UTC
Hi guys
Vinnie, you're right about the decals, they've always been a big problem for me. Hopefully this helps.
I'll try the gloss coats! But what should I use for it? Just some humbrol gloss? (can I use this on tamiya acrylics?) And what do I use for the matt coat?
You guys are very helpfull, thanks!
Martin
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 12:42 AM UTC
Martin
If you can get Model Master acrylics over there then try an acrylic gloss over your tamiya paints Never use any type of laquer based clear coats over acrylic paints The laquer based gloss and flat coats will ruin the acrylic paint
I do know Testors glosscote and dullcote is laquer I am not sure if humbrol is Some people use Future floor wax for a gloss coat I don't know what the European version of Future is You may want to ask around here for that
After you have applied the washes and decals on the gloss coat wait a few days for it to complety cure up then you can add a laquer based flat coat to dull everything up again
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England - North West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 12:46 AM UTC
Martin, I, like you use Tamiya acrylics mostly. For a gloss coat I mostley use Tamiya X-22, since it's water soluble the same as your paints and gives excellent results over the same type of paint. This will also allow you to use a spirit based wash almost immediatley since it will not affect the Tamiya acrylic paint. I still use Humbrol enamel matte cote, but I am trying some acrylic matts, still waiting to find one I like, Polyscale matt is about the best I have found and it is water soluble too.
Vinnie
Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:04 AM UTC
Ok I'll try X-22 for the gloss coat, can I just spray that on with my airbrush (no thinner needed I think?)
And can I spray the humbrol matt coat with my airbrush too?
Lol it takes some questions, but I'm sure I know how to do this after all those questions :-)
thanks all!
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Martin
If you can get Model Master acrylics over there then try an acrylic gloss over your tamiya paints Never use any type of laquer based clear coats over acrylic paints The laquer based gloss and flat coats will ruin the acrylic paint
I do know Testors glosscote and dullcote is laquer I am not sure if humbrol is Some people use Future floor wax for a gloss coat I don't know what the European version of Future is You may want to ask around here for that
After you have applied the washes and decals on the gloss coat wait a few days for it to complety cure up then you can add a laquer based flat coat to dull everything up again
just a stupid question, what is laquer based paint? same as enamel?
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:11 AM UTC
Martin
Do not use that X-22 as a gloss coat That stuff is for making flat paint shiny Tamiya also has a flatbase stuff as well I have read where people have used either the gloss or flat base as a clearcoat only to have it ruin the paint job
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England - North West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:16 AM UTC
What? Martin, there is nothing wrong with X-22 I USE IT. I really don't know what he is on about. It will give you a gloss coat suitable for washes. The Tamiya flat basecoat should not be used as a flat coat since it whitens, but the X22 gloss is fine. Chad, have you actually used the X22? I HAVE. And it's fine. You can thin it with Tamiya thinner about 1thinner to 10 of X22. Oh, and yes, laquer based = enamel. White spirit to clean up and all that, yuk!
Vinnie
Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:31 AM UTC
This is confusing
Chad, have you tried X-22, or have you only read it? Vinnie seems to like it :-)
Still, nobody told me about the laquer based paints
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:39 AM UTC
Martin. I'm doing a build review of the Dragon 251/16 C Flammpanzerwagen as I write this. I am completing the painting of the inside. There is lots of pipework which needs spot washing. I am just completing it now. I used X22 as the gloss coat and it was perfect. Nice shiny surface for the wash. Next I'll flat coat it. No problems! I've used it lots of times. Your best bet is to find out for yourself. get some, basecoat something then give it a coat of X22 and see if you like it, I can't see any reason why you won't. As for the laquer, yes, it means enamel, and therefore you would have to use white spirit or turps for cleaning.
Vinnie
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:41 AM UTC
I agree I always future coat my armor, I feel it tends to seal your base coat for a more longer lasting paint job.
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As for the laquer, yes, it means enamel, and therefore you would have to use white spirit or turps for cleaning.
lol sometimes I realy feel stupid when I'm asking things but what do you mean with the cleaning?
and how do you apply your humbrol matt coat? with airbrush? thinned?
Thanks for all the advice.....I think I'll absolutely improve my models with it!
Martin
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:48 AM UTC
Martin,
I spray Humbrol matt cote through my Aztek. As I do with Tamiya acrylics. When finished or changing colour:
Acrylics: I keep a bottle of water and spray this through until clear.
Enamels: I keep a bottle of white spirit and spray this through until clear.
Vinnie
Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 02:01 AM UTC
Ok I think it's all clear to me now.....
just one last question....do this layers also protect your model, like a layer of matt varnish protects figures after painting?
thanks for all the help, you guys are the best!
Vinnie, I'm looking forward to your article!
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 02:03 AM UTC
Vinnie I've never used gloss on any of my models either. And I have never had a problem of the wash not running right.
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England - North West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 02:08 AM UTC
Martin,
Obviously the more layers, the more protection. I think the gloss coats are harder paints also. Robert? Never? Good for you! Nobody said you can't wash without a gloss coat. We are saying it gives a better result. Try it, you might be surprised.
Vinnie
Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 02:10 AM UTC
Ok I'll try the gloss coat for the wash and the decals soon, keep an eye out for any threads I start about M4A1's or Tigers :-)
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 02:12 AM UTC
Will do! I hope you get good results Martin. We want to see loads of pics! Good luck!
Vinnie
Washington, United States
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 02:29 AM UTC
Gloss cote, dull cote, lacquer....yikes it can all be so confusing!!!
I, like Teacher use Tamiya paint. I use to do washes without any protective coats on my models. While it can yield good results, the flat paint is indeed not as conducive to washes as if you apply a gloss cote.
Use the X-22 that Teacher recommends. It is wonderful stuff and won't turn a damn thing white! Your washes will flow to the corners and recesses like never before.
The only phase that I split from the above advice is dull cotes. I don't use them anymore. After filters, washes, pigments, etc your model starts to get a satin, splotchy finish. Having been on tanks for three years let me tell you this looks just like the real thing.
I recommend that you search the web for pics of armored vehicles around the world. You will start to get the feel for the immense variety of weathering that is apparant upon these vehicles.
Stuke
P.S. Teacher....sweet Tiger!!!
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 02:32 AM UTC
Yep, fully agree with Stuke about the dull coat. When you get to the stage of heavy weathering, you'll find that you probably won't even need to apply a matt cote 'cos it's flat enough. Sometimes you will want to however for protection.
Vinnie
Uusimaa, Finland
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 03:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Martin
Do not use that X-22 as a gloss coat That stuff is for making flat paint shiny Tamiya also has a flatbase stuff as well I have read where people have used either the gloss or flat base as a clearcoat only to have it ruin the paint job
I just checked it. Matt base is X-21. I have used it with floor wax. Works fine. Although I still have to experiment some more to find out a good formula for getting a dead flat mix. In an article in FSM they said mixing 1 part of flat base to 3 parts of floor wax makes a dead flat. It does but it makes the mix dry partly white. Or it's meant to be applied with an airbrush. The flat base+floor wax combination has one really outstanding attribute. The flat base deposits in the bottom of the container but doesn't get gummy, you just shake the bottle a couple of times and it's perfectly mixed. This mix also dries fast, yet goes on smooth & easy, even with a brush.
Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 03:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Gloss cote, dull cote, lacquer....yikes it can all be so confusing!!!
Stuke
P.S. Teacher....sweet Tiger!!!
Indeed, is a dull coat the same thing as a matt coat? And if not, what is a dull coat?
All those English names....lol :-)
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Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 04:08 AM UTC
Future can do just as well?
right?
Ron
