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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Sherman/Achillies/Firefly Question
Littorio
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 09:16 AM UTC
Hi all,
I know there are a lot of Allied armour experts here so these questions are directed at them.

I'am building a AFV Club Achillies II for the Tank Destroyer campaign, I would like to use AM track links on this TD but which is the correct track type for the Achillies II?

Second, What Sherman/s would be correct for the 7th Armoured Division in Normandy 1944?

Third and last, What Firefly types where in the Cromwell Squadrons of 11th Armoured Division in Normandy

I have some knowledge of Axis armour including ref. books but when it comes to Shermans I'am lost.
I do have the following in my stash:
Sherman Ic Firefly Hybrid (Dragon 9037)
Sherman Vc Firefly (Dragon 6121)
Sherman M4A3 (Tamiya 35122)

Thanks
Ciao
Luciano
DaveCox
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 09:30 AM UTC
I can't give a definitive answer as to the track type, although most seem to have been fitted with either the rubber or steel 'V' pattern.

In June 1944 Shermans in 7AD are listed as 36 Sherman Vc (M4A4 with 17pdr) and in December 1944 67 Vc.
For 11AD : June 1944 36 x Sherman Vc. In December 1944 there were 74 Sherman Vc.

Source:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010410004711/www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8418/21agt-1.htm
Littorio
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 09:41 AM UTC
Thanks Dave,
That link sort of answered the Sherman/Firefly question but opened another as one book I do have states that 11AD was equiped with Cromwells and 7AD with Shermans

Now a bit more confused.

Ciao Luciano

TsunamiBomb
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:02 AM UTC
Is it realistic to have a Firefly with american crew in OP Market Garden? If so, what unit?
ShermiesRule
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:20 AM UTC
Garden was a British operation so there would not be US armor involved. The US was involved only in the Market side of the operation and that was strictly Airborne and Air Transport
TsunamiBomb
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:27 AM UTC
Hmm, Its just I heard otherwise. I heard that there were american armored regiments with Fireflies in operation market garden. This could be a very fatal error for my diorama...
ShermiesRule
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:39 AM UTC
XXX Corp didn't have that many Fireflies either. They had a lot of Cromwells and Sherman V (M4A4 75mm). Only 1 in 10 Shermans was a Firefly.

Montgomery wanted the glory to deliver the final blow against Germany so he developed Market Garden as a British operation. He needed the US only for the Air Transport and Airborne divisions as there were not enough British Airborn troop available to cover all the bridges up Hell's Highway. That is why no US armor was involved.

Overall the Brits didn't have enough 17pdr guns to equip themselves and the Americans were not interested in it, preferring the M10 and M18 in the tank destroyer role.
toadman1
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hmm, Its just I heard otherwise. I heard that there were american armored regiments with Fireflies in operation market garden.


Their weren't any 17-pdr equipped Shermans converted for US forces until March of 1945 when the first two 17-pdr armed M4A3 pilot models were completed.

At the time of Market Garden, US armored forces would have had a few M4A1(76) and M4A3(76). And like Alan said, there weren't any US armored forces involved in Market Garden.

Chris "toadman" Hughes
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toadman1
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks Dave,
That link sort of answered the Sherman/Firefly question but opened another as one book I do have states that 11AD was equiped with Cromwells and 7AD with Shermans


Cromwell units would usually have Firefly's to help boost the anti-tank capability of the Cromwells in much the same way they were issued to 75mm gun armed Sherman units. They would probably be issued on the basis of 1Firefly for each troop of Cromwells.

Chris "toadman" Hughes
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TsunamiBomb
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 12:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I can't give a definitive answer as to the track type, although most seem to have been fitted with either the rubber or steel 'V' pattern.

In June 1944 Shermans in 7AD are listed as 36 Sherman Vc (M4A4 with 17pdr) and in December 1944 67 Vc.
For 11AD : June 1944 36 x Sherman Vc. In December 1944 there were 74 Sherman Vc.

Source:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010410004711/www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8418/21agt-1.htm


Well know I dont know who to beleive?
ex-royal
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 12:28 PM UTC
Harrison,
those are British Armoured Divisions in quoted in your post. ..not US..THere were no US Fireflies during Market Garden...XXX(30) Corps was British and as far as I remember there was no US Armour involved at all in the "garden" Portion of the operation. Sorry
Cheers,
Bryan
DaveCox
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 05:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks Dave,
That link sort of answered the Sherman/Firefly question but opened another as one book I do have states that 11AD was equiped with Cromwells and 7AD with Shermans

Now a bit more confused.

Ciao Luciano



If you check the link on my original reply you'll see that both 7AD & 11AD also had Cromwells (and Stuart recce vehicles, Crusader AA tanks etc)- as has already been said the Fireflies would have been issued to Cromwell units at one per troop.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 08:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Well know I dont know who to beleive?

Well, if it's weight of numbers, I'll chime on on the "No US armour in Garden and no US Fireflies in service at all, ever." side. There were some US Fireflys made, but they stayed in the depots.

If you are believeing a person, ask them for a writen source. If it is a writen source, please quote it so we can all take a look. I'd eb interested to know where someone got this idea.

Paul
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 11:07 AM UTC


Quoted Text

Well know I dont know who to beleive?


Harrison
XXX Corps was a British unit, as were all the ground (Garden) forces. The spearhead for the Arnhem operation was Guards Armoured Division, which I think was equipped with Shermans of various types. For an overview of Market Garden, I can recommend "A Bridge too Far", by Cornelius Ryan, its still the first source most people would turn to, & probably most available. I think most editions have Orders of battle in the Appendix.
Luciano, as Dave correctly states, irrespective of basic equipment, Cromwell or Sherman, in theory each troop (platoon in other armies!) had one Firefly. Even divisions that didn't have Cromwells in the sabre squadrons, used them as recon or OP tanks, so it's Ok to mix them if you wish ( you need to check tactical markings though).
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 09:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That link sort of answered the Sherman/Firefly question but opened another as one book I do have states that 11AD was equiped with Cromwells and 7AD with Shermans

Surely this is the wrong way round? 11AD with Shermans & 7AD with Cromwells surely? Ref "The British Soldier" Jean Bouchery. cf also Cromwells destroyed by Wittman @ Villers Bocage, not Shermans.
DaveCox
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Posted: Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 11:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Surely this is the wrong way round? 11AD with Shermans & 7AD with Cromwells surely? Ref "The British Soldier" Jean Bouchery. cf also Cromwells destroyed by Wittman @ Villers Bocage, not Shermans.


If you check the link that I used before, and I have found to be pretty accurate; both division had both Shermans and Cromwells, they would just have been used by different regiments within the division:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010410005444/www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8418/21agt-2.htm
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 04:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

both division had both Shermans and Cromwells, they would just have been used by different regiments within the division

That's right. The regular armoured regiments used Shermans in both divisions while the armoured recce regiments used Cromwells in both divisions.

In the Canadian Army, the armoured recce regiments retained Shermans and never used Cromwells.
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:13 PM UTC
Dave, I'm not looking for trouble, but on your website it shows no standard 75mm Shermans for 7AD. The numbers are also a clue - look at the quantity of Cromwells against Shermans in 7AD - 196 as against 67 17Pdr equipped Shermans. This would imply the armoured regiments were Cromwell equipped with the 1 Firefly per troop as discussed above? Although the maths doesn't quite work out, 67 leaves 22 per regiment (assuming 3 regiments), 3 or 4 per squadron, depending on the number of troops (3 or 4) & number of sabre squadrons, I think it's 4 on a wartime establishment? Overall I think it bears out the idea that the Desert Rats were Cromwell equipped.
Drader
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Posted: Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:30 PM UTC
7th Armd Div was the only one completely equipped with Cromwells. 11th, Guards Armoured, and the Canadian and Polish armoured divisions were equipped with Shermans.

7th Armoured only got its Cromwells after being shipped back from Italy and wasn't very happy with the change.

Some Cromwell units (eg 2 Northamptonshire Yeomanry and at least one Polish) got Challengers instead of Fireflies.
Furry
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Posted: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 04:44 AM UTC
Hi all!

Just one more tuppence to throw on the pile. Seems like we have come around to the fact that 7th AD was primarily Cromwell-equipped, with 11th AD being equipped primarily with Shermans. Several sources bear this out, including primary material on the armoured brigades & regiments within these divisions. A newly-translated book by Ludovic Fortin, called "British Tanks in Normandy" has a good division/brigade breakdown of each unit, complete with markings and equipment. Plus lots of great photos! Granted it is limited to Normandy, but the equipment is relevant to later campaigns as well for the most part.

Also, if you are looking for an example of a Firefly in a Cromwell-equipped unit, check out Taylor's "Villers-Bocage Through the Lens." First off, lots of great photos of burnt out Cromwells, but also several of a Sherman command tank and a Firefly attached to a Cromwell troop. All 7th AD.

Oh yeah.... and one more vote for no US armor/Fireflies in Market Garden.

Tuppence....
Doug
Mike_Canaday
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Posted: Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 08:47 AM UTC
Hello,

One more twist to add to this.

Quoted Text


In June 1944 Shermans in 7AD are listed as 36 Sherman Vc (M4A4 with 17pdr) and in December 1944 67 Vc.
For 11AD : June 1944 36 x Sherman Vc. In December 1944 there were 74 Sherman Vc.

Source:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010410004711/www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8418/21agt-1.htm


It should be noted that the December 1944 figures were only listed by general type, e.g. Sherman, and gun type, e.g. 17 lbr, 75mm etc, as opposed to the June 1944 figures which gave the mark numbers as well. In Normandy, before any replacement tanks the only 17 pounder type in the 7th and 11th were Vc.

The 7th AD had 67 17lbr Shermans in December 1944, which were a mix of Vc, Ic, and Ic Hybrids. The same is true for the 11th Armoured Division.

Actually two twists. The second is that the Armoured Brigade for the 11 Armoured Division in December 1944 was the 4th Armoured Brigade (equipped with 139 Sherman I, II, and 74 Sherman Ic, Ic hybrid, and Vc) not the usual 29th, who had stood down to reequip with Comets and then stood back up quickly with their old Shermans to fight as an independant Brigade during the Ardennes offensive. The 29th had 112 Sheman V and 48 17 pounder Shermans.

Mike Canaday
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