This was my AMPS present to myself. I couldn't resist the Real Models Autocar 8144 Tractor-Wrecker that Olde Depot Hobbies had out. After opening the box & seeing all the parts (lots of 'em) and all the flash to trim (lots of it) and the inverse number of instructions, maybe I should have. Oh, well ....

Here's the box top ....



Anyway, Autocar modified their 5-6 ton 8144T Tractor (used mostly for pulling pontoon bridge trailers) to make a Tractor-Wrecker. In place of the large stowage box behind the cab was a Garwood winch/crane.

The kit states that only one was built, and was sent to Tarawa in 1944.

I am looking for any info on this vehicle, especially pictures or unit of assignment.

Typically tractor-wreckers are used for aircraft recovery; I am not aware if Tarawa became a USAAF airfield after capture or what ? I'm assuming it would haul one of the 12-1/2ton wrecking or 20ton flatbed trailers.

Thanks in advance;
John Ratzenberger

John,
looks like a real nice present to yourself, always the best kind. What is the quality of the kit? I have never bought anything from Real Models, so could you give us a run down of the kit? One vehicle huh, I guess your options for finishing are somewhat limited
Regards,
Robert

John,

Funny thing about models you just never know what might occurr. I have been wanting to make a dio of this very picture because of the unusual assortment of Crash/Rescue Vehicles.

Brian

John,
Got this kit a good while ago.......still in box un-opened...........will have a joint build with you if you wish
Got a couple of builds on at moment but will scramble along with youon the side........
It is a funny beast....but its "recovery "....reason it was aquired.
aye
BARV

I just love old army COE trucks
I'm looking forward to see her build up !

Cheers!
Pedro

John,
For interest see:-
http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/usa/u-7144t_moore.html
aye,
BARV

Wow, what response !!

Brian, where did you get the picture ? A small corner of it is included in the kit instructions. Yours is much more useful. If I knew your source, I might be able to track back from it to develop some more info. That it is sitting on an airfield supports my thought that it was used by the USAAC/F for aircraft crash recovery.

Robert, all:
It's Real Models, lots of parts, pretty well molded, but with lots of flash to clean & mold blocks in odd places. In short, lots & lots of work. Made less fun by the poor quality instructions. 4 pages with a half-dozen pix on each & no text, sequence, etc -- makes for lots of conjecture.

Steve, Pedro, all: Whoa, I've got a full bench -- can't start till mid-late summer at best.

I've started an Album in my gallery & one day I'll lay out the parts & take some pictures, then start the build later. Meanwhile, I still want to do some research, to include coming up with a trailer for it. I think I'll order up the TM for an 8144 just for general reference; need to find more on the crane.

Thanks again for the responses !!!

John

An update on my research & more pleas for help ...

The picture Brian (bf443) posted is here
http://www.firetrucks-atwar.com/sitebuilder/images/151-250x187.jpg

I have been trying to track back from this picture to develop more information on the Autocar vehicle. I have made several queries to the [email protected] about where he might have gotten this picture, but have no response -- does anyone have a better address ?

I have the basic 8144 5-6 ton Pontoon truck TM, but of course it has nothing on the Tractor-Wrecker.
I have hit several air force historical sites, and Vol IV of the Air Force WW2 history, to little/no avail.

I have found there were two fields on Tarawa - Mullinix on Buota (7050x200 & 4000x150, room for 76 heavy bombers & service units) and Hawkins on Betio (6450x300, room for 72 heavy bombers, 100 fighters & service units).

I have determined the 11th BG(H) [B24] (HQ, 26, 98, 431BS) was on Tarawa in this time period, on both fields.

I have determined the 41st BG(M) [B25] (396, 820BS only) was on Tarawa at this time, I think just on Mullinix, but also moving to Makin. However, the chronology at airforcehistory.hq.af.mil shows B-25 missions departing from Tarawa all month long, so I assume the move was ordered o/a mid-April but took time to complete.

I tried posting this query on armyairforces.com & some other WW2 veterans sites to no avail.

OK, here are the questions, many of which are focused on veterans who might have been there.
1). Can anyone confirm/deny the photo is at Tarawa ? And the time period ?
2). If Tarawa, can anyone hazard guess on which field ? I am unsure if looking at intersecting runways or not ?
3). Would the vehicles belong to one of the BS or 11BG HQ, or to a service unit ?
4). Can anyone identify the possible, or better yet specific, unit the Autocar belonged to ?
5). Has anyone ever seen that vehicle, or does anyone have other pictures of it in their files ?
6). Does anyone know how/why that vehicle came to be on Tarawa ? Remember there was only one built.
7). Does anyone know what happened to that vehicle after Apr 1944 ? If the owning unit moved, maybe I can track that.
8). Can anyone laydown exact squadrons, to include service/support and any maintenance/supply/ordnance companies, etc, on each field ?

Whew, that's a lot, I know, but I'm not getting very far in research.

Thanks in advance for any leads,
John

John I too ran into a dead end with that picture. However the truck was a one off and according to one of the late 'Bart Vanderveen' books I have he says the picture was taken at Tarawa 1944. Truck number is (was) '0032253'.

Other then this I am sorry I cannot help with units etc. but is there a place in the States that has the Army registration records? It may be easier to track it that way then by unit.

cheers
Cliff

'Roo:
Figured I'd draw you out ....

Darn, if you're stumped, I'm screwed :-) :-)

Don't know about serial number data bases; given that I've failed so badly so far (except for now being known as a fringe lunatic on numerous sites, my 15minutes of fame I guess), I'm going to have to go to another level ....

I was hoping one of the firetruck gurus would take pity on me about that picture, but ....

Another approach is to try & find the Autocar Company & see what happened to them & their records .... I've not done much with that yet ...

John

Major news update!

John, while looking through my book on Corsair Aces of World War 2 (Osprey series) on page 52 there is a picture of another AutoCar Wrecker picking up a damaged Corsair #576 the photo was taken at Torokina, in December 1943. They was more than one made!

Brian

This does not mean it is a different truck. It is probably the same truck in a different location as it is still the Pacific war.

Is there any chance of a scan of the photo so all can see it?

cheers
Cliff

Brian, 'Roo:

Most interesting news !!!
I would really like a scan of that picture & any text that might be related.

Hard to tell if same or other. If we assume the Autocar belonged to an Army (vs Army Air Corps/Force) Maintenance/Supply/Ordnance Company, then that unit would be independent (and move indepently) of its customers. Thus it could have gone to Torokina in late '43 & then moved on to Tarawa in early '44.

Although no units of the 11BG(H) or 41BG(M) were based at Torokina, the general flow of the war matches up as I don't think Torokina lasted long as a US base (on a very quick look, I could be wrong).

At any rate, I made a quick search on Torokina and that gives me a whole new path to follow.

Thanks for the news, I guess I'm gonna have to go back thru all my books & relook them -- I already did the US Army Pictorial to no avail.

John

Hi John & Cliff,

Negative on the scanner. After studying the picture and thinking about it prior to posting. I came to the conclusion that more than one was built. I find it highly unlikely the same vehicle was photographed between two branches of the Armed Forces, in two theaters, 1000 miles apart at roughly the same time.
I will agree since there is a lack of information on this style of wrecker that it was probably placed in limited production/limited standard. It seems unlikely the US Military would have fielded only one vehicle of anything. Although a vehicle modified in theater and copied by others certainly is feasible. The source for the picture is the USMC. Hopefully more photos will turn up some day.

Brian

OK, guys: A multi-topic post here.

----
Brian -- If you had said "There is another" instead of "There was more than one made!" it would be much more in keeping with momentous events to come this week :-)

Anyway, the one on Tarawa is now "Luke" and the one on Torokina is now "Leia".

----
Mini-kit Review:
I have posted a half-dozen pictures of the kit in my Gallery, the Autocar Album. The two pages of instructions is all you get -- and they don't always match the parts. But it appears to be complete.

Lots of flash, crude detail, warpage, too-thin resin, tiny part breakage, etc. It'll take work to make this presentable.

----
Brian, OK on scan, I have ordered the Osprey book.

----
I also ordered the only book I can find (so far) which might be helpful -- Autocar Trucks 1899 - 1950 Photo Archive. I am still looking for a company history. Anyone know where they went ?

I have the 8144 TM.

I wrote the Ordnance Museum at Aberdeen.

----
I did some brief research on Torokina and found following units:
-- USN: VC-40 & ACORN 13
-- USMC: VMF-212, 215, 216, VMTB 233
although I am unsure about a couple of them actually being there. They appeared ca Nov 43 & were gone ca Dec 43, after which I believe the field was taken over by the RNZAF -- I'm not sure about all that.

Now ACORN 13 was a USN airbase ops outfit & is worthy of follow-up; 1st shot didn't yield much.

I did not find any USAAF units based there, although evidently some a/c used it as an emergency field. I need a second look at this. Being an ETO-guy isn't helping ....

-----
The only source for the "one only" statement is the instruction sheet, so I consider it uncooraborated at this time.

It is not in any of the WW2 era "Standard Catalog" manuals, not any of the derivative books that I have.

I, too, pondered the meaning of finding it on a USN/USMC base with no USArmy nearby (apparently). I guess I need to look at that closer. I am really unaware of what USA equipment was used by the USN/MC

The timelines would allow the Autocar to move from Torokina (late'43) to Tarawa (early'44), but the USN/MC -> USAAF chain is weak. Chasing support units, any service, is about impossible.

One thought I had was that several were built and were undergoing some kind of field test.

----
OK, I have to admit, this has turned into a quest. Just lump me in with Don Quixote & Monty Python ....


John

so if the RNZAF was there the Americans would not have left the truck there. So I believe the same truck is in both photos and was in both places.




It is not the only place it is mentioned. Bart Vanderveen mentions this is his book 'the observer's Fighting Vehicles Directory (world war two)'

And if Bart, who researched these things very very carefully and fully says that then I believe him.

So in my opinion there was only one made and that truck served in the Pacific thetre of operations and traveled with the units as they shifted.





The Pacific war was not two but only one theatre and with the mobile aspect of the Pacific war it is not only feasable but highly probable that the same truck was in both places. Plus the Army and Army Airforce moved in after the Marines so it does not mean that two services had the same vehicle.After all one pic says 1943 the other 1944. This gives 12 months and it does not take a LCM or similar that long to travel 1000miles.

Cheers
Cliff
PS> don't forget that Bart states the truck number as '0032253'. So what is the truck number of the earlier one? Unless you can discover if it is different then we must assume it is the same truck.

Cliff,
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. Even so its still a neat looking model.

John,
The fact both pictures show a fifth wheel installed seems to indicate the trucks were converted from cargo tractors. I can't imagine if it was a purpose built wrecker why it would retain them. I think that lends credibility to in field modication. The kings of improvising were SeaBee's. Its a long shot but I wonder if they might have something helpful.

Brian

A standard cargo tractor unit is what they would have been converted from but whether in 'Stateside' factories or army workshops or in the field is another story. The fifth wheel being intact would indicate that a trailer was used as well with maybe the wrecker unit used to haul damaged planes up onto the trailer for removal. I have seen other British units like this. This also makes sense if it was a swing boom wrecker unit.




I guess we will have to because until it is proven by different serial numbers or similar I will side with Bart Varderveen and the information I have.

Cheers
Cliff

Brian:
A Tractor-Wrecker is a "standard vehicle" -- the most recent I am aware of being the M819 in the M800 5-ton series. Tractor-wreckers are pretty much aviation specific -- the crane lifted the wreck on to a trailer being towed & off they went. Typically Tractor-Wreckers have a longer boom than regular wrecker vehicles on same chassis.

Reviewing TM 9-2800, I see no other Tractor-Wreckers -- maybe this was a first ....

'Roo:
I was not aware of the Vanderveen book & will seek a copy of it -- thanks for the tip -- that;s why I like to get you involved.


John/Don/Monty ....

Interesting, I got my copy of "Corsair Aces of WW2" today & ther eis the picture Brian referenced.

Frankly, it looks a bit small compared to the other picture & I wondered if it wasn't perhaps a similar vehicle based on the 7144 4-5 ton.

Unfortunately, neither vehicle shows any markings so that option is out.
The "Torokina" picture at least has an identifiable aircraft of VMF-214 to substantiate the date & place. I am beginning to wonder about the original picture, although I did find one good aerial shot of Hawkins Field on Betio that would seem to match up.

I spent a good deal of time today going back thru books, the Impact series among others, but no more finds.

Harald (dukw) sent me a picture/reference similar to what I think 'Roo told me about.

Since the USAAF websites/forums didn't pan out & I've got nothing back yet from the firefighter website, it looks like I'll have to start trolling the USN/USMC sites to see what I can find.

I've got two books due in next week that hopefully will help.

Gues I'll have to start asking the aircraft bubbas for help also ....

John/Don/Monty

John having looked at the picture myself now it is the same type of vehicle but without seeing any serial numbers on it you cannot confirm if it is the same truck or not.

Cheers
Cliff

Jim,

I came across a really interesting find. While searching a book titled US Army Vehicles of World War Two by JM. Boniface and JG. Jeudy I came across this information in a section for US Navy and Marine vehicles.
The US Navy Bureau of Aeronatics bought many Auto car chassis for fuel trucks, road transport (C70) and aviation recovery (U90).
While we have focused on the chassis we should have been looking more at the wrecker. Its a 10 Ton Garwood Lifitng System with a 180 degree field of operation.
This system was installed on a variety of chassis for used by the US Navy including the Sterling DDS 235, HC 530 and M1 A1s.
While there is no pictures of a Autocar wrecker there is pictures of the others I have mentioned and the lifting system is identical. Since there was a Navy presence on Tarawa the photo seems to make sence heck, even the Army Air Corps could have been loaned or traded for the vehicle or even a composite of the different branches working together on a under valued function (Crash Rescue)
Since it is referred as U90 it would imply other Autocar chassis were converted as well. It does not say how many were produced. The text and photos appear on pages 230 to 234. Hope this helps you out.

Brian

Brian:

You are an absolute treasure house !!!!

Now I have a whole new direction to careen off in ....

Thanks for the leads,
John