Hey guys,

I've always heard that the ony dumb question is the one not asked. With that in mind, please don't think this dumb......

You guys have already helped me pick a paint job and told me how a bazooka hit should look. Now, after the bazooka round strikes the vehicle, I know some of the zimmerit around the damage should be knocked off. Would the exposed metal be primer colorored, or base vehicle color?

Patrick

Immediately after the hit - primer color should show. Late ('44 0n) German Tanks received a red oxide primer under their Panzer Yellow. Just use caution - you don't want the battle damage to look like big "bulls eyes" on the targeted tank. The zimmerit would flake off immediately surrounding the strike and not in whole huge chunks as is often modeled.

If primer was used in late'44, what about a StuG knocked out in June of '44?

Patrick

GSPatton, I have to disagree with you on the fact that zimmerit would only flake off immediately surrounding the impact area. In one of my reference books on Panthers, there are numerous photos of dented glacis plates from shell hits. Large amounts of zimmerit would flake off from not just immediately around the hit. In one such picture, nearly all of the frontal zimmerit had fallen off. In case anyone has the book, it is Panthers In Action from Squadron.
Andrew

I must agree, the zimmerit was only a paste and was not keyed to the vehicle in any way. The coating may well come off in small flakes as a result of small arms fire and as wear and tear, but a hit from an anti-tank round would certainaly have enough kinetic energy to knock off a fair sized chunk

Robbo

Zimmerit does flake off. Rarely if ever was zimmerit repaired in the field. I was writing about the area immediately around a bazooka hit. The shaped charge is not going to cause the energy transfer of something like a 90mm AP shell. So the zimmerit will shatter and flake immediately around the hit.

As for front glacis they took tremendous beating. Crew mounting/dismounting and no doubt the zimmerit suffered leaving primer color - not steel or panzer gray as I have seen on some models. Also, if the tank received ANY field maintenance and was repainted the non-zimmerit areas would be the color of the camo again not bare metal.

I do agree with the fact that there would not be just bare metal. The chipping of zimmerit is a tricky topic because zimmerit was such a strange sustance. Who knows what a hollow charge weapon would do to a Panther. I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
Andrew

Which page? Zimmerit would act allot like bondo. A lot of the missing, other than weapon hits and normal wear areas, zimmerit I see in pictures appears due to flexing of the metal surface. I don't think the Germans would put something on a time that wouldn't have some staying power.

Sorry, my mistake, the photo is from another Panther book, "Panther", from Concord Publications. As to your statement as about why the Germans would put something on a that wouldn't have some staying power, well, the Germans did many strange things like applying zimmerit. This is strange because of the fact that while it was supposed to repell magnetic shaped charges, the Russians did not use such devices. This fact is from a highly credible source, I believe John Keegan.
Andrew

Just to add a little fuel to the fire...zimmerit was applied to prevent MAGNETIC MINES, not shaped charges from "sticking" to the tank, placed by lunatics running at the tank in the vain hope of attaching such items.
Even if the red oxide primer was visible for a time, it would be short lived especially in the East due to corrosion. If you wanted to model a newly damaged vehicle, would there not be burn marks to consider also? as this would inevitably obscure the primer anyway...
Hope this is taken in the manner meant

Zimmerit protective coating was developed by C.W. Zimmer company in Berlin; that is the origin of its name. Zimmerit was "field-applied" and not factory applied as is the common misnoma.
A British Army report describes its composition as the following:

25% polyvinyl acetate (matrix)
10% saw dust (filler)
40% barium sulphate
10% zinc sulphide
15% ochre pigment (coloring)
Anti-Magnetic Plaster for AFVs, Major J.W.Thompson und C.E.Hollis, July 1945
required per vehicle:
StuG III 70 kg
Panther 160 kg
Tiger I 200 kg
Panzer III 80 kg
Panzer IV 100 kg

Just thought you'd be interested?

Just an idea...
How about painting the model with primer color, then camo color. Use for example thinned wall putty to make the zimmerit just around the impact area (zimmerit for rest of the tank could be made in a different method) When zimmerit dried and painted, use the x-acto knife to force zimmerit chips off the impact area...Do rest of the damage and paint according to the layers that are revealed...
Wall putty doesn´t stick too hard in the surface and it could look convincing as it replicates the real thing quite well! The size of the chips could be ideal for zimmerit damage.

I don´t really know about zimmerit and shell damage on tanks, haven´t tried this but just an idea.


Toni

I have read in a few places that Zimmerit was factory applied as well as in the field. As a matter of fact, I have it right here. In my book "Panther" from Concord publications it says in one caption, "This late Ausf D is covered with factory applied Zimmerit coating." It also states that a portion of Ausf. D's, virtually all Ausf. A's and a portion of Ausf. G's left the production halls with Zimmerit. The application was ended in 1944 due to a rumour that Zimmerit caused vehicle fire (which the book says were disproved) and because SOVIETS DID NOT USE MAGNET SHAPED CHARGES. This is directly from the book and I tend to believe it due to the extensive research and interviews that were used in the making of the book. Once again, the book is 'Panther " by Thomas Anderson and Vincent Wai from Concord Publications.
I hope this sets the record straight!??
Andrew

[/quote] Zimmerit was "field-applied" and not factory applied as is the common misnoma.
[/quote]
From the report by Thompson and Hollis:
"The Production Engineer of Henschel Werke said that the company did not
help in the development of zimmerit, but simply applied it to vehicles."

It was applied both in the factory and in the field. After application, heat lamps were applied which caused it to dry in one hour, if heat lamps were not used it took between eight and ten hours to dry, which would have been impractical in the field.

Try these resources:

http://www.activevr.com/afv/zimmerit.html

http://panzerdiesel.com/english/e270.php

Rob

I have a similar question regarding battle damage to a King Tiger. The one in my diorama is supposed to have been hit on the turret side by a 75mm round from an M4A4 (it just bounced off, of course). What would the damage be, if any, to the King Tiger? It will have a zimmerit coating.

Nic

"zimmerit was applied to prevent MAGNETIC MINES, not shaped charges from "sticking" to the tank" This is still the correct statement. YES magnetic mines are shaped charges but i believe that "shaped charges" also have other connotations. and therefore in this context the statement stands..............................I hope.

Hola Nic,

Although I am not sure but if the round just "bounced" off or riccoched (spelling) I would say, with logical thinking, that some zimmerit would get flaked and chipped, even perhaps some paint of the round where it hit.

As for that Panther book by concord, if Vincent Wai was one of the authors, he is a member of this site (if its the save guy) his name on armorama is vince Might ask him

Well Folgore, as you can see, we have been discussing this subject vigorously. I have some pictures that show a shell impact causing the entire zimmerit coating on the glacis plate to fall off. As for the turret, I have a few photos showing penetration but few showing deflection as the turret side was weakly armoured. I assume that the impact would cause minor flaking of the armour and a large amount of shock to the armour plate. My best answer would be that the zimmerit would be flaked off the area immediately surrounding the impact and if the hit was new, I have seen that the gouged armour is quite shiny.
Hope this helps,
Andrew

"Shaped Charge" is refering to how the kenetic energy of the detonation affects its target. A Shaped Charge focuses it's energy in a small pattern to quickly go through armor plate. Both tank and artillery shells as well as magnetic mines utilized a "Shaped Charge". Zimmiret was used to foil the magnetic mines, which the Russians did not posses the "Shaped Charge" variety. Hopes this clears up that portion of the thread.

Thanks. I might take some artistic liberty and not do the damage. Sounds like it would be pretty easy to make it look stupid.

Nic

Don't give up on a good idea.
Do you have any good reference books of the King Tiger?
If not, you should pick some up.
A few good reference photo's could do the trick.

Happy modelling,
Andrew

When looking at real battle damage it is a lot less impressive than modeled. Also, 99.9% of photos we look at regarding WWII armor are black and white. It is hard to determine exactly what the real color was based on the shade of gray. Needless to say it too should be handled in moderation. An AP shot hitting the turret, even if it does not penetrate is going to ring your bell. Modelers should think about that before modeling a tank peppered by dozens of shots. It would be a truly brave crew who could take that many hits and not bail.

On top of the psychological effect, the shell impacts would cause metal splinters to spray and possibly injure the crew. I do not think that one shell hit on a model is unrealistic in battle though.

Andrew

Actually, in my diorama, the King Tiger crew are about to be bailing out. Not because of the one glancing shot off the turret, but because the commander of the Sherman decided not to wait for the King Tiger to set its 88mm gun on him and rammed the tank instead, effectively knocking it out of action. In the reference I have on this event, the Sherman did hit the King Tiger with a 75mm AP round first from the side (not sure if it's on the turret, actually, but that would make sense) and then rammed it. Inoring the detail of the damaged armour wouldn't detract from the story too much, I should think.

Nic

If I can put my 2 pence in.

HEAT rounds are low velocity and soley rely on a hollow charge explosive reaction (also called the Munroe Effect) burning through the armour.

Very, very effective on normal armour and the 66mm LAW could penertrate 275 mm of armour up to 600m. No kinetic energy whatsoever and non velocity dependant unlike AP, APDS etc. and as efficient at 3000m if you could hit the target as at 300m.

On the modelling side a HEAT hit on armour is always recognised by the presence of copper (the remains of the melted copper cone) on the edges of hole and in the hole itself.

The average size of the penertration hole on the 66mm LAWs I have fired is around 20 mm. Usually fired at M4/Kangaroo Ram hulls.

Peter (Trackpins)
Major (Rtd)