I'm at work right now and I got most all of my stuff here done (crunching numbers all day bites ), so I decided to browse around some model sites and see what's new, one of them was Lionroar and when you click on the button for English and it takes you to the homepage and it shows their latest stuff.
Amoung their releases was a detail set for the DML Tiger I initial production and to me, after all the neat stuff that DML already packed away in the kit, why would I, or anyone else, really want to get that particular item? I mean, there are some parts that may need to be changed and that may look cooler in p/e, but that's a big set that's about the same price as the kit itself and most of it ma not even be used at all. It seems cool, but at the same time, not really. There are some nice pictures, as fuzzy as they were ,that showed what the detail set contains but it seemed like maybe just the working fenders in the front and the stowage bin details would be cool.
Also, the upcoming Tiger I late from DML came to mind and with all the stuff we're going to be getting, why would any company want to try to create some stuff for that kit, if anyone is in the process of making it. Like how the new Late Tiger will have P/E side fenders and real working front and rear fenders and whatever else.
Just a thought from me, I hope to hear some of your opinions. (I know that maybe the subject line may be misleading, and if it is in anyway, my apologies to those who may get confused because even after I typed it, a couple other things came to mind).

RC

My guess is that these AM detail sets are for items not covered by the original. In the older Sherman kits there were just a few PE parts. Details such as straps and chains and little tiny bolts were not part of the original.

Yeah, I can imagine that, like how that Lionroar AM set provides working fenders and stuff like that, but what I'm saying is that why would there have to be a ton of other stuff in there? I mean DML did give out a lot in it's Tiger I initial and it appears to be giving more in it's late version...

RC

Really, I should have phrased this as refering to newer kits. I do understand that older stuff may need some AM stuff.

RC

Hi, I think it would all be up to the builder as to just how good their skills are and just how, dare I say, anal, they are about dead-on historical accuracy in a certain kit.

Like most anything in this life, there is always something a person can do to 'tweek' something up one of two notches above what is offered factory stock, it just depends on how much that person wants to, or can do, these little 'extra' things.

Personally on the Initial Tiger kit, I'm not going to use most of the PE provided, as I find the injection molded stuff to be just about as good, or as good, as what could be formed from the extra PE provided. So why go to the trouble. Now others will disagree and so be it. It's their model and they can do what they like to it. And I for one will appreciate their skills and hard work at adding that something 'extra.'

I'm into this hobby for fun and relaxation and when I feel I'm getting into something on one of them that ticks me off, for whatever reason it may be, I back off and look for, and then go, the easier route. (The latest are those d------ Dragon "Magic tracks." So I go Fruil. Simple. Problem solved.)

But then again my models aren't going to be in any shows or publicly displayed and are only for my own personal benefit, so being 100% accurate isn't a manditory thing. Hey, if it looks Like a Tiger or a Panther tank then that's what it must be.

You wait, you will see extra 'detail' sets of after market parts coming out for Dragon's new "88" gun and their new ultra-detailed Panzer IV as well, a few months after they hit the market.

Good luck, and take care, Sgirty

I can agree with both of you guys overall. I mean, detail sets have the overall advantage of making your life easier, but other times, they're just a pain in the butt. Like to me, fruil tracks and metal barrels are ok, mainly because they can save work time or w/e else and they are a little expensive, but sometimes your own personal time is more precious than the cost of some tracks or a barrell. I can agree too that some AM sets are rather dumb to "invest" in period. I always try to convince myself that since the tank was in battle, most of that stuff probably got knocked off one way or another, or something like that. Still, the overall feeling of a nicely detailed kit is too good to pass up on, even though i rarely detail my stuff, unless it's a kind of special kit that requires some love .

RC

Hey. This is a good topic. If I decide to put PE on a kit it has more to do withwanting to spend more time on that particular kit. Some of the older ones that are sparse and thus it give me more to work on. I would probably never get a set for alot of the newer offerings because they have plenty to work with.

Even with the PE I do get I shop VERY hard for sales and only get the sets that won't break me. I've started to work hard on detailing with other cheaper items, ie plastic stock, wire, alluminun from pot pie tins ect. As stated mine aren't going in a show so it's pretty much just for my building enjoyment anyway.

Nothing wrong with those who choose to but many of the newer kitshave plenty to keep me happy.

Choosing AM parts and accessories is like buying models themselves. Invest some time in some research and it usually pays off. Do I have every UBER set of ABER PE for my kit? Nope. But I'm sold on TMD hatches and periscopes for my US Tanks. I also will usually use AM tracks. PE and most resin add ons I'm very picky about. Barrels, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Just search review sites like PMMS and you'll get a good feel if a particular company's AM part/set is good for what you're looking for.

Not all is extraneous junk. Some add very little to the overall model. Just gotta shop around.

Ain't it the truth. With newer kits that are out, why "invest"? I try to shop around and be careful about what I get, but sometimes there is just something about a nice AM set that makes me want to get it. It's like a new project and the truth is, many of us have a hard time finishing one project before we want to start another and AM sets can provide an outlet to that specific problem. I guess just certain types of P/e sets bug me just because they're like a total waste, especially when it's for a new kit that really doesn't need it and to create some of the same effects you can get like with a hinge set (or two )from Aber and that will cover you for many projects ( I guess I'm refering to those workable hinges provided in that Lionroar set that made me start this topic)...
Just as a follow up, do any of you guys think that DML is trying to put an end to some after market stuff? I mean, they recently updated their page regarding the Tiger I Late and it has workable mudguards, do you guys think that it would be like a counter to preventing the creation of AM sets?

RC

As I stated before I have yet to purchase an AM set to replace anything from the kit. I have occasionally purchased AM sets to add additional things missing from the original kit. I have also never done a resin conversion that requires replacing 40% of the original parts with replacement parts to get a new style vehicle.

I am not against people doing these things and if I had the money and time I probably would do it too. However modeling is supposed to be fun. On my budget and schedule I cannot afford the luxury of PE and AM resins nor can I afford the time. I would not be having fun complaining about the price of AM sets (based on current salary) and how little time I have to properly cut and shape resin and bend PE parts. If I won the lottery and had $100million and retire, you bet I'd be all over the updates.

Therefore my enjoyment currently focuses purely on making my OOTB kits the best I can with minimal expeditures on ancillary products.

That being said.... one of these days I will go balls to the walls and build one Sherman with every doohickey, thigamajig, and whatchamacallit on it. I have even picked out a name for that Sherman. She will be named "The Cat's Meow." So someday when you see my post pics of The Cat's Meow you'll know it will be my attempt to do everything.

This is a good question ...well for me ,looking at the new Tiger kit ,I find it hard to see where Lionsroar can make a big set without repeating what has already been repeated in P/E already in the kit. Now if they give you side skirts and the clamps for attaching the track changing cable ,the early style stowage box and other dodads that help you build an Initial Tiger that has survived the winter and has had things added to it that aren't in the kit ...Then maybe I'd think about it ..
As for buying resin and P/E update sets...Well I'm guilty of it and love it ..Just off the top of my head I have 9 resin hulls for different Shermans sitting around and at least a P/E set for each of these ...At least 7 or 8 resin turrets too.. I think I have almost every set that Formations have come out with or close to it. Does it make my kits better than others??? No but I like em..

Rick

Good point ,most of the time I do get a PE set it's because I just feel like spending extra time on that subject. I just got the DML KT Battle -Bulge and WOW, I don't feel I need to add any AM stuff.

Is DML trying to fry the AM makers? I doubt it. I think they're trying to dig in tighter than a tick as the leader of the pack. I think there's just too many other kit makers out there to hurt the AM manufacturers.

Yeah, I have to agree with you stug61. There is no way that DML will ever have some kind monopoly on the entire industry. There are just so many older kits out there as well and AM stuff will just keep doing what's its doing.

I'm honestly the same as you Mr. Craig. I just like P/E and resin stuff. I mean, sometimes, it seems a little pointless, but I guess there's just something about brass...Its alluring, like gold
I just know that I'm bad...I recently went P/E crazy buying stuff of e-Bay...It was all Aber stuff for specific tanks (I wanna make a real cool DML Pz IV E ; I wonder what terminator would be in German lol) and then some random detail sets for multiple vehicles and some fig stuff... I'm happy and I'm not totally selfish because I'll be more than glad to help my model buddies if they need like hinges, clamps or w/e really cuz I'm just that kind of guy

RC

I don't tend to buy things like turned barrels (mainly because I prefer to use the ones in the kit) but they do have a following and by including them in the box, Dragon make it possible to have a "one stop" kit at a reasonable price without the need for buying these parts separately.

At the end of the day, it's up to the individual modeller as to what they want to put on their model but it's nice to have the choice.

Well here's my two cents..I love pe stuff. I think it adds nice detail to kits. I enjoy using it, I grew tired of building OOTB, and I like the results pe adds to a model. If you don't like it, don't use it. It is not for everyone.
I don't agree with 96D4HS9 (Jeffry)-IMHO, the detail is soooo much better than the plastic blobs that just can't be replicated in plastic. If you don't like it, that's ok. The modeler in Tenn. that you mentioned probably enjoyed building his tank with all the extra details. If he had to spend a $150.00, then that's his choice, and he was probably very happy with the results. I don't think that makes him a sucker as you suggested. If you don't like aftermarket stufff then don't buy it. And If I decide to spend my hard earned money on something that makes me happy, then that's my choice.
That's my rant.

Good comments guys...
I love the current trend of being able to build nice models ootb ian2, but I really love aftermarket too Parks20...It really does had a nice touch to a model and is really like starting a new project...which, as I believe I already said, we all really like doing, so it actually tends to help us finish a project on the whole....

RC

Thinking on - I remember that Aber or Eduard (can't remember exactly) did a conversion set for the Pz 1 - this was before the new Ausf A and B kits that came out a year or so ago. The fret had a new superstructure and bits for the turret.

Now presumably such a set has been made redundant by the new Tristar and Dragon etc kits so would it qualify as a collector's piece, in he same way that those old bagged Airfix kits do?

The other think about etch sets is that assembly of them is a modelling skill all of its own and one beyond my paddle blade fingers - I have Tony Greenland's book on Panzer modelling and some of the things he's made (either scrathed or from etch sets) look like they require the skill of a watchmaker!

Normally i don´t use PE, but on some kits its really makes a differense between a OK kit and a great kit. Take the big cats - tiger and panther - engine grills really lifts the kit to another level, same goes with T-34.

On other kits it dosn´t matter that much - to me that is...

I love the new offerings from Dragon, enginegrill, individual tracklinks, metalbarrel and metalwire ... everything i need in one box, and at a very fair price!

Try to get the same with a Tamiya kit - and see the price ...

I don´t buy aftermarket stuff as is, but with the new experience i have got with Dragons stuff, i really will be tempted to invest in aftermarket for other models - so in many ways, Dragon might just have made a new costumer for the aftermarket stuff

I agree,Mr.Mox,on your comparison of DML and Tamiya as far as AM/PE.It looks to me as if Dragon has come full circle back to Gunze-Sangyo multi-media kits. I have used every AM material out there except PE.I just don't see the differance in the newer kit offerings for the most part-grills and other mesh-OK.But if you like it,fine.I believe Mini-Art uses PE to do wrought iron railings,lamp posts, and such.I like that kind of application of brass and think this is the way AM will explode in the hobby-diorama accessories.
my 2 cent meter just expired-

Ian2,
I think that both Eduard and Aber have made various sets for doing conversions for a Pz I B....if I'm thinking of the right ones...I know that I have the Eduard conversion for the panzer I B...or detail set...I just got it cuz it was cool looking lol, not to mention it would be neat to do for this maquette (italeri actually) Panzerjager I B that I have, which the set itseld is already cool enough with the white metal and resin, but I wanted something to use that was a little more refined...which is in a way why I'm using fruily tracks....

I've used P/e for a long while now, and I really was frustrated (using this term loosely ) with the result that I was getting... I just got together with some buddies, one in which was real experienced with it and after just one day with him, he has shown me the way...the thing that helps the most is an etch-mate/fold-and-hold... That makes the experience more enjoyable overall.

I have Tony Greenlands book as well and it has shown me a lot of stuff. I would recommend it to just about anyone who likes building AFVs. I would tend to agree with you Ian2 that really, his work is crazy.... Quite a few of the things he made were scratch built, like his Hornise...or Nashorn...I can't remember exactly...as well as his Bison II for Afrika....That was real cool!

RC

Right on MrMox...

I can recall talking to a friend of mine about if Tamiya did stuff like how DML has been doing it (and I know that this has been said a lot on this site as well as others) that it would cost a fortune... Like if tamiya decided to retool one of their Tigers or Panthers, and include P/e, indy tracks, and a metal barrel, it would be like $100-150



RC

I tried the PE set for the Achillies but wasn't that impressed. It seemed a lot of work for not much difference. A bit disappointing really.

However, the turned aluminium barrel that came with my AFV Club Scimitar was vastly superior to the plastic barrel that came with my Academy Warrior (Same 30mm Rarden cannon). It was very clean and sharp and infinitely better, as was the PE exhaust grill. They really made a nice difference.