Hello all,

I have heard that we used M60A1's during DS. My question is this if that is true. Why didn't we use M60A3's? I understand why we didn't use the A2 versions but why wouldn't the Marines have A3 versions? Lastly, what is the difference between the A1 and A3 versions of the M60?

Andrew--I'm pretty sure that we did use M-60A3s in the Gulf War. Down at Quantico there is the Marine Air Ground Museum and they have an M-60 that is credited with being the first coalition tank to enter Kuwait City and I'm pretty sure that it was an M-60A3. I have pictures at home so I will have to go look tonight and let you know for sure whether it was an A1 or A3.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your other question about the differences. I'm not very well versed on modern armor.

The USMC used M-60A1 RISE tanks. They had some improvements in optics and tracks etc....... But they did not use M-60A3 tanks as far as I am aware. Concorde has a good book with coverage on the USMC M-60A1. " USMC Firepower Armor and Artillery" item # 1011. A very good book.

Deacon

And While we are on the Subject of M-60's, I have an Italeri Blazer kit at home that I found out has a set up for a search-light, BUT No instructions as to how or where to mount it. Does anyone here have an idea or thoughts on this..Because Right now, I'm stumpted!!

DAGGER-1

Dagger,
The search light sits on the gun mantle on top of the tube. it sits in a trycycle type support with two longer legs on the bottom and a short leg on top. Here is a photo of a line of M-60s with search lights. M60 w/ search light It is the same mount as used on the M48 series of tanks if that helps.
Here is an M48 with the same light set-up. M48 w/searchlight

Gino:
Thanks. I knew that it mounted on the Gun Mantle. BUT for this particular kit. Their does not appear to be a Tri-Pod type set up, More of an L- Shaped support piece. So I am still trying to figure it out. Plus the Blazer does not show it as being a part of its structure. SO.. I guess I get to try and figure it out from there. Apparently it will go in place of the third MG that IS a part of the over-all structure. Anyway when I get home today I will go look at it again, And see what i can figure out.

DAGGER-1

The USMC was equipped with late model M60A1s with the reactive add-on armor (Academy had a kit of this version with dozer blade). The Navy was too cheap, the excuse was M-1 were too heavy, to buy the Marines M-1s. A father of one of a Marine in the 4th Tank Battalion (USMC Reserve) sued the Navy/Marines for sending Marines to war in obsolete equipment. The Army was forced to give the USMC 54 or 58 M-1-series tanks out of their hide (no exchange of funds) to equip the 4th Tank Battalion. I believe the other USMC tank battalions (active Marines) all still had their uparmored M60A1s.

The major difference between the M60A1 & M60A3 is the fire control system. The A1-version has a coincidence (manual) range finder, analog/mechanical ballistic computer and IR or passive (starlight) sighting system along with normal daylight sights. The A3 has a laser rangefinder, an electronic ballistic computer and thermal sight along with normal daylight sights. Items like engine exhaust smoke generating system, smoke grenade launchers and thermal shield for guntube could, and often were retrofitted to M60A1s.

The Army did not seen any M60-series guntanks to Kuwait (they did have mobile bridge systems and combat engineer vehicles based on M60A1 chassis.

Hope that answers your questions.

Jeff

Jeff,
That answer about the Marine M1A1s was not entirely correct. The USMC decided that they would wait until the M1A1(HC- Heavy Armor, Common USA/USMC) tanks were produced before they would equip the force, thus skipping the M, M1IP, & M1A1 series of tanks. Operation Desert Shield caught them by surprise and they, the USMC, took 16 of the HCs straight from the production line into the theater, thus putting the Marines in the position of having the most advanced tanks in the Gulf. The additional M1A1 HA (Heavy Armor) tanks came from Army stocks as mentioned. I know that the 8th Tank Battalion (USMCR) rode the M60A1(RP) and the other Reserve Battalion (4th TB??) had the M1A1s.

As for US Army M60A3s, nine were deployed with the separate Cavalry troop, D Troop, 4th Cavalry, I think, of the 197th Seperate Infantry Brigade which was attached to 24ID (M) and later bercame 3d Brigade 24 ID (M). No one seems to really rememeber what ever became of those tanks.

HTH
John

John, that's not entirely correct. Prior to the start of the Gulf War, the last of the USAREUR tank battalions had already transitioned to the M1A1 heavy commons. The units that deployed from Germany to the Gulf (1AD, 2AD(FWD), 3AD, 2ACR, 3-34AR of the 8ID(M)) had heavy common tanks.

As far as the $197th tanks, some of the CONUS units that showed up with M1IPs were issued 9 month old straight M1A1s that were turned in by the 8th ID (and other divisions) when we drew heavy commons in July-August 1990. That was the easiest tank turn in I ever did!

The $197th may have gotten some of those tanks. Also LTG Pagonis describes in his book Moving Mountains, that AMC came and replaced the 105mm guns with 120mm guns in theater. I am rather skeptical about this since to upgrade a 105mm armed tank to a 120mm tank requires more than just a change of tube. New fire control, ammo storage, GAS among other things.

Rob,
I got the Heavy Common info from the proverbal little old lady in tennis shoes at PM Abrams/TACOM. The Marines deployed 16 HC tanks, 8 Lima & 8 Detroit SNs. The rest were HAs. 1-37, 2-66 & 3-66 all deployed HA's out of Germany during "Deforager" at Bremerhaven. I am not sure of what 3AD/8ID deploted out of Rotterdam/Antwerp. I do know for a fact that 2ACR and the rest of 1AD deployed M1A1(lights). We also loaded two divisions of M1A1 (lights) out of POMCUS as we loaded 2ACR out in mid November 1990. The Battalion (2-70 in Erlangen) that I went to after my original battalion drew down drew HAs after the war and gave their lights with the additional turret armor to 1ID, 4-37 in particular. As an aside, 3-35 in 1AD had an IP that they "found" and the CSM rode across the berm, shot a T-55/Type-59, after which the CSM rode the rest of the war in his HMMWV...

John

I don't know near as much as you guys concerning these things, but have been e-mailing a lieutenant from 2nd ACR about the equipment used during the battle of 73 easting. I asked him very specifically about the version of M1's and M3's that they took into that battle. I will post the reply he gave me below.

Dear Andrew,

I appreciate your enthusiasm for what we did during the ground phase of Operation Desert Storm. You are correct that most people think the war was all about the air power, but you can't really conquer an enemy until you put men on the ground.

Before I go any further, I just want to clarify that I was with 1/2 ACR not 2/2 ACR. As I am sure you know, the 2nd ACR was organized like this at the time:

-- 1/2 ACR (1st Squadron - 41 M1A1HA tanks, 41 M3A2 Bradley CFV's, 6 M106 Mortar Carriers and 8 M109A2 Self Propelled Howitzers)

-- 2/2 ACR (2nd Squadron - 41 M1A1HA tanks, 41 M3A2 Bradley CFV's, 6 M106 Mortar Carriers and 8 M109A2 Self Propelled Howitzers)

-- 3/2 ACR (3rd Squadron - 41 M1A1HA tanks, 41 M3A2 Bradley CFV's, 6 M106 Mortar Carriers and 8 M109A2 Self Propelled Howitzers)

-- 4/2 ACR (4th Squadron - 26 AH-1 Cobra Attack Helicopters, 27 OH-58D Scout Helos and 21 UH-60L Support Helicopters)

-- 1/2 ACR (1st Squadron - 41 M1A1HA tanks, 41 M3A2 Bradley CFV's, 6 M106 Mortar Carriers and 8 M109A2 Self Propelled Howitzers)

-- RSS (Regimental Support Squadron - Consisting of various maintenance, fuel, supply, etc vehicles: HEMMT's, etc.)

-- CCS (Command and Control Squadron - Comprised of the Regimental Command Group and various Regimental Shops: RS-1, RS-2, RS-3, RS-4, RS-5, etc.)

-- Finally, the Regiment included various support companies like an Engineer Company, an ADA Company, a Chemical Company, an MI Company, etc.)

All in all, the 2nd ACR comprised about 5000 soldiers.


That's what he had to say concerning the vehicles used by 2nd ACR. I can't say who is right or wrong, all I can do is pass on what one of the tankers in that unit told me they used.

I do not remember which units, but there were some stateside units that fought with 105mm-armed M1s, it was in one the official Army histories. 8th Tank, is probably right. I could not remember exactly the title of the USMCR battalion. Silly me, I assumed that the numbers of the USMC tank battalions matched the numbers of the 4 divisions, one per division. Either way, the Marines are still the red-headed step children of the Navy, sort like the Army is the red-headed step father of the Air Force

Same one who does the TMs?
I wonder if anyone really knows which tanks made it into theater, which ones made it into battle, etc. I know when I hooked up with 3-32 Armor in theater, that some of the M1A1 lites they drew were from the same batch of tanks that I turned in when I was the HHC XO of 5-77 Armor in Germany.

I do know M1 IPs were there, but I never saw one. I also never saw an M60A3, but have heard that some made it into theater via CONUS units. Of course I also never saw a Scud or Patriot missile, but I assume they were there!

O.K., back to this one. Does this bother anyone else? We Didn't even give the Marines the good version of the old tank, we gave them the old version of the old tank. They realy used manual sights? Thats just plain crazy IMO. I have heard we did have some 105mm versions of the abrams in the theater but only put the 120mm into the offensive (my point isn't whether any 105mm's went into battle or not, but that we did have some in reserve that nobody used in the offensive). So we have these M1's with the 105 barrels sitting back and we send the marines into an offensive against Kuwait with M60A1's????? I am by no means saying that the Marines can't handle themselves, they did. Just that they should have had some better tanks if they where available at all. Even if they where going to use the M60's we could have at least gave them the A3 version with a lazer range finder for goodness sakes. I hope there is something here I am wrong about because it just doesn't make sense to me. Please let me know if I am so I won't be upset about this.

God Bless every one of you that served over there.

Drew, you're working yourself up into a frenzy for nothing. This was the first of the "come as you are" wars. The Marines were trained up on the M60A1s, more so then they would have been on the M60A3TTS. The Marines deployed with the equipment they had been training on and were loaded up on their ships. Besides, the M60A1 had ERA, the M60A3TTS did not. This means the M60A1 has better survivability than the M60A3TTS. The M60A3TTS had the best thermal sight and a laser range finder, a crosswind sensor that never worked and a different fire control system.

The Gulf War happened before the USMC transitioned to the M1A1 heavy common. Bad timing, that's life. They must have had confidence in their equipment and training to take the vehicles into battle. I fully believe that the Army would have offered the M1s and whatever M1A1s that were available. For some reason, the Marines did not fully equip themselves with the Abrams. Maybe they didn't think that the straight M1 was enough of a advantage over the M60A1.

I also know that the early M1s, M1A1s and M60A3TTSs did not have fully functional amphibious landing capability at that time. The Marines' M60A1s would have had that ability at any moment in time. The Army tanks would have taken a while to reconfigure. Also the Marines' supply system would have been stocked with spare parts for the M60A1, and not for any other tank. There may have been many reasons why they did not go to the Abrams at that time. Hard to say.

I have to agree with SAbot . I would rather go to battle with an older set of equipment that I knew inside out and was ready to fight it . Than a new piece of techno hardware that might cause a problem in the middle of a battle that I was unprepared for. Sometimes you go with what you have not with your dream machine. II dont doubt there's inter service games but I doubt the NAvy would puposefully put Marines lives at risk,

Josh
aka shiryon

Since this seems to be in teh same family of vehicles, is the M728 still around or has it been replaced? I saw the academy kit, and know nothing about this tank, though I will jump on the net to look shortly, and probably answer my own question...

NATE
Wisc. USA

The CEV is still around in the lower priority divisions. They are being replaced, but it may be the better part of the decade before they are all phased out. The Academy kit that is/was listed as an M728 is not an M728. It is in fact a USMC M60A1 with D9 dozer blade and reactive armor. AEF Designs sells a CEV conversion set that I hear is pricey and may not be all that great.

An injected plastic one will probably come out after the last of them are made into hard targets or off shore reefs.

Thanks for clearing things up for me ont the Marine equipment issue. All the things that were said mad a lot of sense. I was hoping there was a good reason for them using what they did and you guys gave me several, thanks for clearing things up for me. I am over my little tyrade now.

I just happened to stumble upon this discussion and signed up to shed some light on the M60A1 concerns. I was with ACo 8Th TKBN USMCR. We were issued M60A1 tanks. I say issued because the M60's we trained on in the States were worn out and we needed to be mobilized and sent to the theatre rather quickly. We were stationed at Fort Knox KY so moving a company of M60's to Saudi Arabia wasn't the best option anyway. Company B was in NY, Company C was in Tallahasse FL and Comapny D was in Columbia SC. Also, it is important to note that the M60A1's we received in Saudi were essentially new tanks. When I say new I mean they had not been used. They had been maintained in storage for many years somewhere probably Diego Garcia. My understanding is that the Corps has a lot of equipment on the high seas at all times for just such an occasion. The date stamped into the hull on our hog was 1964 or 1968 perhaps. Memory is a little fuzzy. The tanks came off the ships painted in the green camoflage scheme. We painted them tan and bolted the reactive armor on ourselves. Typical Marine Corps situation - there wasn't enough for the Co so the only actual reactive armor was on the front slope and front of the turret. The plates on the sides of the turret were hollow. (I can only speak for Co A - not sure about the others) Never quite figured that one out. As far as combat goes each platoon in our company gave up a tank and crew to be part of the breech team. Those "lucky" guys got mine plows, rollers or rakes attached to the front to clear the way for the rest of us. Lost at least 1 tank because of a mine. Blew the mine rollers or rake off and sent it skyward a good 20 feet. A Co 8Th tanks was assigned as the point element for the 2 MarDiv specifically 2/2 Marines. We breeched early morning somewhere close to where the Saudi, Kuwati, Iraq borders meet. Left the breech tanks behind - too slow - and cut a mile wide path of destruction across the country side. A couple of things to think about from an equipment and logistics point of view. There are 4 Marine Divisions. The 4th is the USMCR. The 3rd MarDiv is stationed in Okinawa and has no Tank Battalion. The 1st MarDiv and 2nd MarDiv were in theatre. At the time there were 4 tank battalions. The 4th and the 8th (half of the Marine Corps tank units) were in the USMCR and scattered all over the US with old M60A1's. We all had to get outfitted with new equipment including tanks. Quite an undertaking - but you can see why there was a mix of equipment. From a strategic planning standpoint 8th Tanks was sent quickly to be in theatre and 4th Tanks were held back for a crash course in the M1. Semper Fi.

Couple of issues:
Nathan if you want a great M728, Perfect Scale Models out of Germany has a great resin convertion. Got one awhile back and it blows AEF completely away. So PSM is the way to go.

Next some unit ID questions to everyone in this post who has knowledge?
So 8ID=3-34AR M1A1, 1ID=4-37AR M1A1, 1AD=3-35AR M1A1, but what Div's were these units and type of tracks. 1-37AR, 2 & 3-66AR, 2-70AR, 3-32AR, 5-77AR. Thanks Joey

as said before the Marines used M60's with reactive armor added. After the war was over they were given a small amount of M1's (I think they were M1a1's but not positive), and they setup a training unit out west (maybe 29 Palms). One of my inlaws was with that unit. I think that their tank deliveries were from new stock after that. If memory is right the training unit was trained at FT. Knox before ever recieving any M1 tanks. Man that's been a long time ago! About twenty years now
gary

thanks for answering a question I've always wondered about! The tanks built at Warren Michigan were some we never knew about there where abouts..
gary

Howdy everyone, It seems like just yesterday that we beat this topic up. Oh wait it was July 2006. For Drewgimpy, it is the man not the machine that determines the outcome of the fight. Again for the record: The USMC did use the M60A1 (RISE) passive tank in Desert Storm. We also used 10 of the 11 M60A3s that we grabbed from the US Army after they had transitioned to the M1A1. In the fall of 1990 the USMC 1st, 3rd and 8th(Res) tank battalions were in Saudi Arabia. They were all equipped with M60A1(RISE)passive tanks that came off of the MPS(Maritime Pre-position Squadron) ships. Meanwhile back in the states the 2nd and 4th(Res) tank battalions were going through M1A1 NETT(New Equipment Training Team) at 29 Palms, CA. They flew over to join the festivites around Dec 90-Jan 91 and drew M1A1s "commons" that were suppposed to go to the 3rd ACR. In Jan,1991 the US Armys 197th Seperate Infantry Brigade from Ft Stewart,GA had NETTed in country from the M1-M60A3 to the M1A1. The Brigade Cavalry Troop had eleven M60A3s. The USMC MEF(Marine Expeditionary Force) G4 was made aware of the fact that there was a battalions worth of 105mm M1s and eleven non ERA M60A3s available. The USMC sent down representives(myself and some other Jarheads) from 3rd Tank Bn to see what condition the vehicles were in. We reported back that the "NATOflage" M60A3s would be a good thing to pick up. MEF allocated six M60A3s to 3rd Tank Bn and five to 1st Tank Bn. Upon arrival in the battalions Field Trains area 3rd Tanks immediately turned one into a parts tank(hangar queen). Then they assigned one to each of the four gun companies in the battalion.
Oh and here is another thread from September, 2005!
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/59474#498528
Outta here, Mike sends . . .

More information on USMC tanks in Kuwait. D Co 1st Tks was on the last deployment of the M60A1s to Okinawa. (Before transition to the M1A1) They came to Kuwait on amphibious ships part the force from Okinawa. They had the tanks from Okinawa. The ERA installed. A Co 4th Tks USMCR out of San Diego, CA had M60A1s. A Co came via amphibious ships) from San Diego, Part of the amphibious force off the Kuwait coast. They had the tanks left by 1st Tks at Camp Pendleton so they had ERA installed.