There sees to be a limited selection of dragon armour in my area (Vancouver, BC) Where are good places that sell hard to find dragon kits I go to some places and they are always "temporarily out of stock" I would prefer places in Canada but anywhere esle wil do.

DML production is way down. They have put a lot of energy into the ACTION FIGURES that they now produce. They also seem to have a situation brewing with Marco Polo distributers. They have a new line of products Panda Hobbies that is producing some very nice kits. Good luck with the search for current DML items.

Tiger is absolutely correct, except for the last several releases some of the DML kits are getting harder to find than hen's teeth. That is why you see kits like the M4A1 going for 60+ dollars on E-Bay now. The dolls bring in much more revenue than the plastic ever did. Another aspect of their diminished production is our own fault, they have tried to make quality kits for modelers and often what they hear in feedback is only what they did wrong, face it, no plastic kit is ever going to be perfect. They don't get the same nitpicking from the doll community and they buy more than modellers do, so where would you put your money? Sadly, it all adds up to DML kits getting more and more scarce.

Coop

Very good point clovis, especially the 'nit-picking' part.

Put simply, I'd buy a DML kit (generally) over an Italeri kit (sorry, pet peeve with the plastic they use if nothing else) anyday of the week. Humnph! Come to think of it....I do!

Tread.

It seems as if the 'nit-picking' may be killing off more and more kits. While at my local hobby shop the owner complained that people are avoiding "good" kits because of 'nit-picking' by reviewers. He claims that when a new kit comes in people will avoid it because they have seen a review on-line or in a mag. that claims the turret is incorrect by 2 scale inches. This rivet counting mentality causes few kits of a type to be sold. The manufacturer then thinks, that the public doesn't want tank x and they become reluctant to try new molds. Remember this process is not cheep.

Howdy Tiger,

Interesting dilemma. A more interesting quandry though.
I would have to assume that most of the people who would read (or at least be interested enough to invest the time to read) a review, would be people like the members of Armorama. Having said that, does that imply that most 'serious modeler's' base their purchase decisions on mag and/or web review's?
Anyone?
An additional point is this; Assuming at least some of us have tried to scratchbuild something in regards to our modeling 'habit', does that infer that some number of those feel that a manufacturer that provides us (the modeler) with a close facsimile of a given product is actually giving us something more time consuming than if we spent the time to scratchbuild it ourselves?

Tread.

Tread I totally agree with you on the comment of DML over Italeri, Hell, I buy one new DML over Tamiya anytimes, if for nothing else, but the individual track links alone. DML did some amazing working in the past, and even though they now invest most of the money on the dolls (which makes more sense on a tooling base, because I suppose moset of the torso, legs, and arms are basicly the same, for launching a new figure all they need to do is invest on the tooling of head and hands, whilst for an armor, it's a whole new tooling)

I am so glad that I am not knowledgeable enough to be a rivet counter, I just enjoy the building, and all the varieties. Of course I would not tolerate gloss inaccuracy, but other than that I would give a tiny rat's @ss about three missing bolt on the bottom of the hull....

Let's show more support to good/not so good kit manufacturers, who knows, one day one of those 'not so good' kit manufacturer might make something nice for me.... #:-)

Tread, It seems that some people will not touch a model like a Academy Honey because the turret basket is not correct for that version.We have to understand that this was a cost effective way to do both versions of the M-3, some people just dont get it. The manufacturer then sees that the kit sells slower than projected. When it comes time to produce another vehical they must reproject the sales vs. the cost of the molds. Most people here seem to be willing to correct the problems if they want the kit. I will build most any kit as long as the subject matter interests me. You would be surprised at the people who wouldn't. Those that can or will scratchbuild small modifications often will build anything. It seems a new breed that expect a 1/35 exact working Copy not a reasonable facsimile of a vehical straight out of the box. People who research the subject more than research the base model tend to be the few these days. Most people here are looking for ways to improve their skills and final product, not to have a manufacturer do it for them.

Have you tried Burnaby hobbies located at Rumble and and Royal Oak? One of the best ones in the area. Also Blue Mountain Hobbies in Coquitlam on Ridgeway ave between Nelson and Marmot. Only two decent ones outside of Vancouver that I know about worth looking into. There is one in North Van on 1st street not sure what its called A guy named Martin owns it used to own Blue Mountain. Also Magic Box on 37th ave in Vancouver itself. Hope this helps.

I tend to buy what interests me. After I purchase a kit I will go on-line to find rewiews just to get a heads up on problems with fit, ect. I'm not a rivet counter by any means. If it looks cool and is fun to build I'm pretty happy. I have several DML kits in the stash, but do tend to look for a kit without link to link tracks if I can find one. The eyes and fingers aren't what they used to be.

There is thin line between "nitpicking" and constructive feedback. If no one every complained about fit, lack of detail, etc. we would all still be building Monogram 1/32nd scale kits. Corporations are in it for the money. When they realized shoddy kits didn't sell well they improved them. Do you think Tamiya's kits would be the as good as there are now if they didn't start losing market share to Dragon/DML?

Just my 2 cents...

Hey Tread .... is this not the same thing? I for one like Italeri... for their endeavor to put out vehicles that everybody would love to see and yet all the big companys stay away from and for a very affordable price. This may be your own form of knit-picking and rivet counting. The people that knocked DML may have killed them, but why do the same to Italeri. All this only helps Tamiya increse its price all the time for their kits.
This is not meant as dig at you Tread but a lot of people have their own favourites and put down those that they have peeves about, but Italeri have come in for some unfair criticism recently as well (their DUKW for example). Everybody was talking about ths kit for so long and when they brought it out . . . . . . . . . nothing but complaints. Its a dod-eat-dog world and we could end up only tamiya $100 kits to choose from if this continued.

I don't think the criticism was "unfair" about the recent Italeri DUKW and the LVT's. For the money, these really aren't what they should be. I think they are a step back for Italeri.

But, I don't think Italeri should go under because of negative reviews.

We also need to remember that a few years ago there was no Armorama or Missing Links or even an Internet. There were only the reviews that would be in specialty magazines, word of mouth, etc. The new technology has allowed everyone to have an equal voice when it comes to opinions on products.

When we hear a kit reviewed by someone on the web, do we even question if that person knows a darn thing about building models or the real world vehicle? Just look at this site and you'll have people saying many contradictory things. How do we know what to listen to?

I think some people just love to bad mouth something for the sake of bad mouthing something. They want people to listen to what they have to say. They want to be an 'expert'.

Go to a model contest and you'll see a few 'experts' who's contest entries would'nt even win a junior division. Yet when they don't win, they blame their losing on the judge not understanding how they 'corrected' the kit, etc... Then when they get home they probably write a review of the kit and bash the manufacturer because they weren't able to build it well.

I love DML. Sure they have some lousy kits, but who dosen't. They also have some of the best plastic kits ever produced.

If I were buying kits right now, I'd stock up on DML.Tamiya is strong and you can always get thier kits. I really hope DML continues making new products. Their recent Elephants are great.

Steve

This, if answered, would be the model builders bible. But also because we dont know who to listen to that causes this problem. Its a pity one person couldnt vet every kit put on the market. Somebody like Cookie Sewell (?) who does some great reveiew for amps or or terry Ashley for Perth IPMS to name just two possibles.
Sometimes I think modelling should be more defined. Those who want every bolt with correct washer size to those to............ the rest of us! The first lot dont ever seem to be happy!

Here in the good old U.K, we're having the same problem with low D.M.L. stocks in hobby shops, and yes, I agree, the "rivet counters" have a lot to answer for. The magazine 'Military Modelling' runs a section called 'Dispatch', and you can guarantee that every month someone has written in in great detail as to "incorrect rivet detail / weld seams / correct shades of U.S. olive green etc.
These are the "experts" who, in my opinion, are killing our hobby and they seem to spend so long complaining that they cant have much spare time for making a model. I'm waiting for the day to come when one such "expert" says that he knows for a "fact" that a particular German tank painted in the Ambush Scheme, only had 467 Red-Brown spots, and not 468 as some proud modeler had had the audacity to paint on it!

I build for me. I have won trophies at IPMS events. I don't build to impress anyone but myself. I work on new methods and every tank is better than the last. I'm am not near as good at airbrushing as most people, but I'm working on it. That suits me. This is, after all, a hobby. If it was a job, some one would have to pay me... I don't count rivets but if that is your thing, fine.

I think Italari is now starting to produce DML kits. Dml is mentioned on their website?????
Italeri click on the products section.

Matt

Getting back to the original question at hand for a moment: Military Hobbies has a good selection of DML kits and they are in Canada. I recently dealt with these guys for the first time and found them to be a good place to buy kits.

Now back to rivet counters: I agree that too many people put too much stock in these bad "/reviews" of kits. I've built a lot of kits over the years made by a lot of different manufacturers and there are only a couple (3 or 4) kits that I would caution people to stay far away from. Yes there are kits that are harder and shouldn't be tackled by a novice, but for the most part unless you are completely obcessed with accuracy the kits that are out there look the part and for those that are obcessed with accuracy, a minimum of effort can yield a really accurate and fine looking model. In my opinion, DML is the best manufacturer out there when one takes into account detail, price, instructions, quality of fit, and variety. They beat Tamiya hands down due to their indy links, price, and variety.

This is an especially interesting perspective vis a vis DML and the action figures. My take on it is that it's all like Beanie Babies some five years ago - it's a fad. There are people out there collecting every little thing that comes along for these figures. New boots? My corporal wouldn't be complete without 'em. A more accurate M1911? Sure! I'll plunk down my money. And then what happens? Somebody out there realizes that this all just a fancy GI Joe, and do they really want to plonk $60 to get them the latest greatest helmet?

Then the bubble bursts, ebay gets flooded as everybody tries to dump their collections. The last step happens when the big companies that have ignored their kit tooling to feed this latest fad realizes that they're lost enormous market share to other companies quietly close their doors.

Am I singing the death knell of DML? No, I don't think so. Will we experience a decline until the bubble bursts? Sure thing.

Maybe this discussion belongs in a different forum, so I'll take it there....

Mika

Dang Tread - it's great to have you back on the Forum(s) - I was getting bored! You really know how to ask/make multi-sided statements.

My perspective might be a little different than the average Forum member, but I do consider myself an average modeler. Like Adam said, DML packs a lot of punch inside their model kits. Usually, and for a long time, more overall value than in Tamiya subjects. Back in the early nineties I shyed away from them because of the "expert" opinions I read - until I dove into one myself. Most of DML's subjects call for some modeling experience and skill, but that's no reason for them to take hits. For me, a model review is like watching ABC News - and I won't go further in that statement - but I'm sure you catch the drift.

I hate the term "rivet counter" too - as if a quest to make a miniature attractive and accurate is somehow a crime to those who cannot or desire not to do so with their models. "Rivet Counter" gets lumped in with 'expert' model reviewers and somehow makes that less than savory too. I know a lot of modelers who want to make a name for themselves, and bragging about the latest +$100 dropped on parts for their latest Zoom-Widgeted-Thingy, they feel gets them into a perception of the 'big league' of modelers. Some guys think soliciting every modeling publication to put their thoughts into print makes them the 'big dog'. And, some think writing reviews puts you 'inside' the covet circle of 'elite modelers'.

I don't say anything, but I do watch and select my avenues for expression carefully. I avoid the sport of panning model kits because it's futile and self-serving in the end. How do you serve modelers by shying them away from building a kit that they could learn something from in completing? It's a facetious question - I already know the 'patented' answers.

Italeri's DUKW was brought up in this thread too. Interestingly, I had some trepidation about the release because of the lukewarm reception Italeri armor models receive. Only this time, I had plenty of photos of a real one with measurements of actual parts to go with them. Aside from wheels that appear more like worn Korean-era tires than the WW-II type, the Italeri kit is quite a bit of alright! Sure, there doesn't seem to be a lot of parts in the box to somehow equal it's retail - but what is the parts-to-retail price ratio anyway? Thank God they didn't take the Heller approach and break down a three-piece assembly into seven parts.

An average modeler can assemble and paint their Italeri DUKW in a weekend - and it forms a great base for modifications and extra-detailing for more advanced modelers. Isn't that what the average armor modeler is always complaining about not getting from major manufacturers?!?

To me, on my experience level, a review is useless if the reviewer hasn't opportunity to actually see, touch, photograph, or measure the prototype subject. References are not always presented in the review - and when they are - they're from a photobook filled with someone else's intrepretation of photos. Not everyone has the luxury to access military vehicles like this on a whim, so, the next best thing an experienced modeler could do in reviewing the kit is to build the kit and spotlight areas of construction, finishing, marking, or detailing that might pose a problem for a novice-to-average modeler. The obligatory opening paragraphs on the history of the subject is nice, but stating that the two wheel halves that should go together smoothly, but don't, is of more value to a modeler.

Sorry for the rant - I've been in bed sick for the past several days. Plastic Withdrawl symptoms makes me cranky sometimes...

Gunnie

An excellent comment(s) Gunnie, not just cause I agree with you, but fair to every side of the discussion. I know myself, I get frustrated with things and get stubborn about them.
But I guess being a little more thinking and less talking/writing is the way to go.
Live and let live!

That's why I always appreciate guys here not just all talks but also have their work shown, real nice stuff!

Like Adam suggested, Godfather, I would try www.militaryhobbies.ca. I have been able to find DML kits there that I hadn't had any luck in getting through the local model store. They do seem to be tough to get. I didn't realize why until I read this thread. Interesting.

On the other topic of this thread, I am not much of a rivet counter, but if I can find good references or instructions on how to make a kit more accurate, I will not shirk from doing it. It can actually be quite fun. Some kits may be bad (like basically any injection molded Italian armour kit ), but they are the only ones representing that tank out there. There are almost always update kits you can order for a little extra accuracy and detail (and fun in my opinion). The Maquette sIG 33 Bison appears to have just horrible reviews, for example, but it's the only model of that vehicle out there (as far as I know), so I would like to get it some day (I think it's on special at Military Hobbies, hmmmmm.........). In most cases, the kit shouldn't be so bad that you can't make a good looking model out of it.

Nic

Folgor
Alan models of russia make a series of sig 33 kits. Sig 33 field gun, bison 11, and Grille m don't know if their Maquette kits reboxed or totally different kits. Haven't built them yet . but what I've heard isn't to bad.

Hello to all. Well I guess I touched a raw subject. I did not mean to use the term "rivet counter" as a negative term. Everyone had their place in this hobby. Yes most people here on armorama have been great with opinions and reviews. It's the much more casual modeler or the person that expects the manufacturer to do everything but paint the model for them that are the problem. I build models for the satisfaction of making a box of plastic (or resin) look like a real vehical. Sorry if I offended anyone with this thread within a thread.