I posted this a few days ago elsewhere:

What do you think about the propensity of some of us to feel compelled to needlessly clutter our AFV projects? I'm not talking about a realistic "junking" up of our models -- we know that soldiers were great scroungers and bicyles, furniture and all sorts of sundry items ended up on vehicles.

I'm referring to the "Verlinden-esque" habit of piling on all sorts of inappropriate items. I think "good" clutter adds dramatically to models while "bad" clutter detracts. Examples:

1) MP 40 ammo pouches everywhere! How about on the guy's belt or on the assigned clip on the vehicle wall?
2) Panzerfausten. Right. I'm gonna jump out of my turret, run to within 100M and lob this lame rocket at an IS2 when I can swing around and get him in the sights of my L/70 KwK 75mm cannon? C'mon. Leave them with the grenadiers.
3) Clutter atop turrets -- especially when the AFV is supposed to be in motion. Think about how much jarring and tossing these vehicles would go through. Go offroading in your buddy's old pickup truck. You won't leave your binoculars or Lee Enfield flopping around -- I can guarantee that.
4) Tow chains everywhere. If you had a heavy tow chain in your truck's equipment, would you leave it dangling off of your front fender or on the engine deck? The damage it would do and the needless noise would drive me crazy -- and the NCO as well.
5) Bed rolls and other gear on vehicle sides that would easily get caught in passing branches. When did we see a lot of this? On M3 Grants in the desert! You don't see them on M4A1s rolling through the Normandy bocage. Leave them on the turret or engine decks. Don't forget to attach them with straps, too. Tankers didn't attach them with super-glue.
6) Ammo rounds. Is the tank being reloaded? Is it a sustained indirect fire mission? OK. Is it about to go charging into the Soviet AT gun screen and you've got grenadiers aboard? Then leave the ammo rounds in your spares box (or on the racks inside).
7) Please, please, please. Leave the German entrenching tool and bayonet w/frog with the infantry. Keep it off of the Panther G. Good rule for infantry equipment in general, wouldn't you think? OK OK, if it's a SPW or M3 Halftrack, it's acceptable. Not on Tanks or the maintenance truck. Infantry equipment for infantry.
8) People steal from one another. Important gear, equipment, rations and valuable items routinely came up missing. How would you store that newly-gotten Luger pistol? Strapped atop your bed roll which is attached to your right fender?

Okay Okay -- one too many coffees today. LOL

RC


Subsequent additions from other posters included these:

9) bedrolls (and other flammables) near exhausts
10) fuel jerry cans stacked on engine decks, access hatches or air intakes, (potential backyard BBQ)
11) pioneer tools not in assigned locations (how do you get them in the dark?)
12) binoculars hanging off MGs -- quickly damaged
13) postwar ammo boxes on wartime subjects
14) seemingly magnetic jerrycans rather than strapped on
15) seemingly magnetic spare track links and logical placement

How about various packs and pouches hanging off of antenna mounts? That has always bugged me.



Chris "toadman" Hughes
Toadman's Tank Pictures

You've got some good points. I really only model Allied stuff where I think it's far more appropriate than on German. I can't recall too many photos I've seen of German tanks with a lot of extra stuff on board, maybe half tracks.

I agree with Rodger about the German stowage in general. I seen pictures of some Sturm III and Jagd IV with some "stuff" on the back deck but rarely any other AFV with a much of anything, save the occasional bucket.

Oh, and you guys forgot my all time favorite, THE 55 GALLON DRUM!! That's right folks, I am rolling into combat with an extra 55 gallons of inflammable liquid over my engine compartment. Just to make it sporting, the barrel won't allow me to fully traverse my turret!

Shaun

Me thinks its gone the same way as rust.. Seen some pretty rusty tracks on AFV that are supposed to be in combat.. Now, unless the tank or what have you is completely out of service, I doubt that much rust will develop.. But I guess its all in the eye of the judge, if you are in competetion, or what we have expected to come to see... Just my two pennies

Dave

i remember reading Shep paines how to model tanks and military vehicles, he has a chapter on crew stowage. he says hat U.S. vehicles were commonly festooned with stowage he has a photo of a vehicle in a heavily forested area with bed rolls all over the sides and the engine deck covered, also vehicles in Iraq, Abrahams covered in stowage. How about the russian vehicles and the challenger with huge external tanks right next to the engine decks. i see the point about Infantry equipment but Ive got photo's of Stugs with racks of jerry cans on the back maybe these vehicles are on the march but would they stop while a t34 is blazing away at them to remove the inflamables. Interesting post but i like a little artistic licence with my models.

I was watching a show about the LRDG and the SAS, and at the point I was watching was talking about the arrival of the afrika korpsin North Africa, and showed panzer III's and maybe early IV's with the short barrel being off loaded from ship with a row of jerry cans (no pun intended :-) ) across the top of the turret by the gun matlet.

I notice tank rounds stacked like pick-up-sticks on the turret top or back deck. Not a place I'd store my ammo.

About chains, I've seen some chains hanging off of 1/35 scale vehicles that look big enough to be anchor chains in that scale. Rarely ever ran across spare chain in my day, and if we did, it was a small tow chain no more than 6 feet long. We stored it in the sponson box and I don't think we ever used it.

If you don`t have them already you should look through the panzer Colors series You would find enough Pictures of Tanks and other vehicles with a lot of stuff added to the backdeck and such. Mostly it was stuff that was usefull for the Panzer itself. Things like spare roadwheels or spare tracks. Often they had some Jerrycans on the backdeck or the turret. Mostly they wouldn`t contain fuel but water check the white crosses.


I actually know that footage and there are numerous pics about that. keep in mind they were going to Africa and not much water is found there. Most of the jerrycans tied up to a vehicle in Africa was filled with water.
If they had tentrolls on vehicles then it usually was tied on Fenders (Regardless which vehicle) Or between another nook or cranny available on the Vehicles superstructure. Most of the stuff (If possible) would be placed inside the vehicle or in Stowage bins.

Roy, et al.,

Right on, man! Have we met and exchanged horror stories? This stuff drives me nuts. Glad to see some one else who says NO WAY to the Verlinden Way

Bearing in mind that it is a hobby, blah blah blah, I can't fathom why some folks go to such effort and expense to make a model as real as possible, then "Hollywood" it up with fanciful stores.

I am venting because this is something I have whined and boo-hooed about here,and elsewhere, before. I have been told my AFV/airplane is unrealistic because it is too clean/dirty, even when I show the photographs I am working from. Paul Owen's article Weathering Heresies is one of my favorites, and is still #4 in FEATURES Hall Of Fame. Yet it seems to fly in the face of the V-Way, i.e., what is accepted at shows. I have a couple of friends who build only the V-Way, and are show-winners at MasterCon, etc., whose' models have sold for hundreds of $$$ on eBay. They use fire engine red for rust streaks, rust streaks that out number the pigments in the rest of the colors, and paint stores bright greens and yellows 'because they stand out.'

So does an Andy Warhol! :-) And you can hardly see the vehicle due to the junkyard of pouches, barrels, boxes, tarps, nets, maps, extra weapons....ammo just waiting to be hit and ignite...huge brass chains...

Yeah, this is a sore spot for me. And try though they might to convert me to the V-way, I still say NO WAY! I'll build my lil' toys as best I can to represent the most realistic, accurate and authentic representation of the subject that I am able. If the Minions of Ol' Franscios snicker at my proletarian, provincial, pedestrian models, I just smile back and feel superior.

For my 2 peneth, I agree with Roy. After 24 years in the Army, I think I can honestly say that it is rare to see vehicles (armour or softskins) festooned with clutter. Of course one of the main reasons is that anything attractive/useful would get nicked!!

As far as modelling is concerened, of course artistic licence should be encouraged. However, keep this to harbour areas and rest halts where kit would more likely be left on fenders etc, whilst in use. Also, bear in mind the surprisingly small amount of kit that inf/armd inf would carry into battle, even today.

Thats my little rant for wot its worth.

Well, to each his own, I guess. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I like alot of stowage on my vehicles, but try to make sure stuff like the turret won't be impeeded, vision ports blocked, etc. To me it adds alot more life to the subject/dio, and if the scene is not an action scene, it shouldn't matter too much.

Shaun,
Funny that you would say that. Because this discussion made me think of German stowage (personal belief is that it varied widely and was mostly subject to the supply conditions at hand and to the type of operation and theatre in which the vehicle was engaged, with a little kicker for turretless vehicles that added permanent racks/boxes), I did recall seeing a picture of this very thing you mention. Do you have the Squadron "Tiger in Action" book? If so, check out page 35.
Now, these guys weren't "rolling into combat" (witness the covered muzzles), but it just adds to the truism "never say never (or, almost at least)."

Keenan, I thought the same thing about the 200 ltr. drums on the back of panzers but........


Faust your quite correct about the Panzer Colors mags.
It seems the plethora of crap on the back and sides of tanks seemed to depend on the area of conflict.
Europe - with supply lines shorter for the Germans from D-Day on, supplys looked less and cammo more.
In Russia covering vast distances tanks looked like they had everything including the kitchen sink stowed on them.
Then it could just be a case of " never underestimating the power of stupid people in large groups " [Nazis].
Cheyenne

Cheyene,
You're good, that's the picture I was talking about.

Edited: Actually, slightly different photo, taken right before or after the one in Squadron's book.

Here is a modern picture of a combat ready CV 90 in Afghanistan. You simply do not stack all your personal stash on the outside of the vehicle when you have internal compartments. The worst thing I see is personal weapons leaning on the tracks. Sooner or later your rifle or sub machinegun will be run over by a tired driver.

Hello All:
Thnx for your comments. As in my original post, I'm not declaring that no clutter occurred (bicycles,funiture, etc.). Also the jerrycan rack atop the Pz IIIs bound for Africa and those 55gal drums on the Tiger I engine deck are actual examples. I'm just saying that sometimes modellers push common sense (like the 5" thick chain draped over the sheet metal fender).

I try to put appropriate clutter/stowage on areas where they wouldn't impede the normal usage of the vehicle and that if I were a crewman, I'd place it for utility's sake.

That's a good ending to this post, Roy. One last point. There's a lot of difference between modern day forces and the forces of WWII. We have many more ways to resupply and different tactics. I guess, in the old days, it depended on a lot of factors, probably mostly on the crew.

In honor of Roy my next Sherman is going to have every scrap piece of 1/35 spare I can fit :-) It'll look like the Beverly Hillbillies move from the hills!

Personally, I like to put just a few pieces of extra stuff on my tanks. A couple of bags, and extra piece of track, maybe a wheel and that's it. I guss it's a personal thing, but I like to keep mine fairly clean.

Wow, looks like I stirred up a proverbial 55 gallon drum of hornets. I have the book. My only point was I have seen what I think are too many examples of AFVs with 55 gallon drums on the back. Actually, I think the only reason they are usually on the back deck is because they came with the Tamiya jerry can set.
It surely wasn't SOP to drive around with about 100 gallons of fuel on the back deck.

Shaun

Heheheh good one.
I personally don't care what people dow ith their models - I prefer more realistic but if a model looks good I can forgive some poetic license in the compostition.

Well, I found this rant to be excellent, and enjoyed reading it. Learned a few things, which is good. I personally think, and this is just my oldman thinking, and a little common sense, is that the Germans may have transported a drum or two on the rear deck during a troop movement, as seen in photos, but probably removed them when they reached the assembly area. I also can't see any tanker, reguardless of nationality, or era, placing items that would impede the use of any of his weapons, in a combat setting, but again during a troop movement/relocation behind the lines, he would have been happy to bring along the kitchen sink, and the bathtub.

I think I know the point being made! The fact that some of the storage is out of place on some afv's. The infantry kit on a tank or loose kit on the back of a vehicle, the packs/ rucksacks glued around the vehicle with no sign of attachment means(guilty on this count ) . My own favourite is the well made, painted and weathered ETO Sherman with American ALICE rucksacks for storage! I am always bugging a buddy saying I am going to add an ALICE pack to his Bren Carrier or a 15 CWT while hes not looking :-) :-)

I tend to agree with most of the comments about stowage and it bugs me every time I do an AFV it isn't dirty or rusty enough for someone. Never fails.

About the fuel drums and cans... keep in mind the context of the photo. We routinely carried extra fuel cans on vehicles during road marches when I was in the military ... If we were not in combat areas. That picture of the tiger judging from the relaxed look of the crews and the road would seem to be a road march to a new location and it explains the drums. Just my opinion everything has its place IF you can explain it's presence. Gear that doesn't fit with the context of the subject is a bad idea.