Virginia, United States
Joined: April 29, 2003
KitMaker: 718 posts
Armorama: 684 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:23 PM UTC
Hello All,
I've just posted a couple of pictures of a destroyed M1A2 into my gallery. Here is one of the pictures and a short story that goes with them.
Dragon 65. It got hit by an IED recently, and as you can see, doesn't look good. Thank the Lord that the crew walked away. Amazing. Most of the damage on the turret (the top), appears to be from the ammo in the tank exploding. It is
designed to blow out the top of the turret so as to protect the crew.
Appears it did its' job.
Tanks
Andy
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 2,709 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:52 PM UTC
Wow that really is an eye opener. Thanks for placing these photos Andreas. After all this damage, i too am glad the crew walked away in one piece!
From a modelling perspective however, that would make one amazing dio!
Do share if you have more photos.
Jeremy Wee
"A man is incomplete until he is married. After that, he is finished.."
Correze, France
Joined: June 10, 2004
KitMaker: 5,329 posts
Armorama: 5,204 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:55 PM UTC
Really amazing to know the crew are still alive. They must be blessed.
Good to know that modern tanks meet their survival requirements when needed too.
olivier
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"La reine des batailles, j'ai nommé l'infanterie"
Napoléon
Paris, France
Joined: August 30, 2005
KitMaker: 2,315 posts
Armorama: 2,158 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:51 AM UTC
Poor M1 better you than me
Well looking closely to the M88 they seems desertized ?
There is bullet proof windows around the commander hactch on one of the pictures and you can see clearly skirts
does any of you have other pictures of these modification ??
cheers
Warszawa, Poland
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 01:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
you can see clearly skirts
does any of you have other pictures of these modification ??
Skirts are standard feature of M88A2 Hercules. But the armored glass is interesting addition.
Pawel
Pawel "Vodnik" Krupowicz
Professional Certified Rivet Counter.
New Jersey, United States
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
Armorama: 1,483 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 01:52 AM UTC
holy crap thats a huge IED! Its amazing that the crew made it out alive.
Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: April 26, 2004
KitMaker: 5,435 posts
Armorama: 2,762 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 03:41 AM UTC
Sorry guys....IED?
edit: never mind, found it already:
Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) / Booby Trapsmust have been a big bomb
Cool to see 2 M88's lift the tank. Amazing how much they can have!
Lucky M1A2 crew
1/16th radio-controlled
1/35th static
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 926 posts
Armorama: 356 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 04:28 AM UTC
Personally, I think they should stop shooting at us.
Michigan, United States
Joined: January 15, 2002
KitMaker: 579 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 11:24 AM UTC
Great pics. Thanks.
Amazing that the crew survived when you look at it. The "system" must work as advertised! Any pics of the front of the vehicle?
A question- The back of the turret appears to have opened...Is this a design feature or an indication of it being an extreme event, more than the blow-off panels could handle?
Thx.
Jim
Jim
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 2,709 posts
Armorama: 1,818 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 04:39 PM UTC
I believe Andreas indicated that it was due to the ammo in the tank that was placed specifically such that it would blow away so as to avoid killing the crew.
Quoted Text
Most of the damage on the turret (the top), appears to be from the ammo in the tank exploding. It is designed to blow out the top of the turret so as to protect the crew.
Appears it did its' job.
Jeremy Wee
"A man is incomplete until he is married. After that, he is finished.."
Ohio, United States
Joined: November 21, 2003
KitMaker: 347 posts
Armorama: 313 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 04:45 PM UTC
The ammo compartment is designed to blow UPWARD, not sideways or to the rear. The entire rear half of the turret is gone, either removed by the ammo combustion (not likely, IMO, I have seen other cook-offs with no rear turret removal) or it was so damaged it was removed prior to loading onto the flatbed. Another possibility might be the turret was slewed off to the side and the underside of the rear turret took the blast from the IED. The port side hull seems to have taken the most blast damage (apart from the turret), if the turret was turned to the right, the rear turret would have been hanging over the left side, taking the full force of a road IED. Either way, that was some explosion to completely take the rear turret off from the loaders door on back.
Was this the only one like this so far? I know the 14 Marines from Lima co 3/25 that were KIA last month were hit with a VERY powerful IED, the same kind that supposedly destroyed an M1A1/A2 earlier this summer. IIRC, this was the only M1A1 actually taken out of service by a bomb blast, before the resulting fire completely totaled them.
Just my observations.
The Marines have done much, with so little, for so long--we can now do anything, with nothing, forever.
No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy.
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of All Who Threaten It.
Semper Fidelis
Indiana, United States
Joined: January 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,716 posts
Armorama: 1,864 posts
Posted: Friday, September 23, 2005 - 02:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The ammo compartment is designed to blow UPWARDAnother possibility might be the turret was slewed off to the side and the underside of the rear turret took the blast from the IED. The port side hull seems to have taken the most blast damage (apart from the turret), if the turret was turned to the right, the rear turret would have been hanging over the left side, taking the full force of a road IED. Either way, that was some explosion to completely take the rear turret off from the loaders door on back.
I'd agree with this, because if the turret was forward, the blast would have to go through the crew compartment and/or the engine compartment to get to the ammunition, much less set the ammo off; through the crew compartment, and that crew is NOT walking away, if they come away at all.
Jeff
Sua Sponte - Ranger Challenge 2006
A person does not grow old and wise but for surviving the dumb "stuff" when they were young.
Life is tough. It's tougher still if you're stupid.
Texas, United States
Joined: August 01, 2005
KitMaker: 87 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, September 23, 2005 - 02:09 PM UTC
whatever hit it was in excess of 1000pds of boom my company had tanks continue mission afer hitting 500lb air droppable bombs rigged with remotes, and the ambush afterword, so whatever hit them hit them hard and the bottom of the turret under taht ammo is in excess of 3 inch thick, and most tanks over there right now are only carrying 3-5 rounds hardly enough to cause that big of a cook off in the compartment,
Tanks are the right and humane way to end any world scuffle, be it oil, civil unrest, foreign hostile regimes, weapons of mass distruction, and or just plain pissed at someone, so love and OBEY them
PFC. Jeff Jacobus
D-22 Gunner
1-8 cav 1 cd hooah
Virginia, United States
Joined: April 29, 2003
KitMaker: 718 posts
Armorama: 684 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 07:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
most tanks over there right now are only carrying 3-5 rounds hardly enough to cause that big of a cook off in the compartment,
Wow, the Army's even stingy with Ammo in a combat zone. Most Army tankers I hung out with at Taji had full TO loads on board.
Tanks
Andy
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 2,709 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:44 AM UTC
3 - 5 rounds? Geez i guess they have to make every shot count.
So im guessing in a combat zone, an abram often moves back into an APC type role where the MG ends up being the only form of cover once they run short of rounds?
Jeremy Wee
"A man is incomplete until he is married. After that, he is finished.."
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
3 - 5 rounds? Geez i guess they have to make every shot count.
So im guessing in a combat zone, an abram often moves back into an APC type role where the MG ends up being the only form of cover once they run short of rounds?
You have to take this into context. The threat over in Iraq is not another tank. Not a large call for 120mm main gun rounds being fired. The main role for the tanks is convoy escort and patrol duties with the main threats being snipers, IEDs, and dudes with RPGs. It is more important to have lots of .50 cal and .30 cal MG ammo for the guns than it is to carry 120mm main gun ammo. So a few rounds are carried if needed. For the major fights, like Falluja, the tanks were fully loaded.
Field Artillery --- The KING of BATTLE!!!
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Showcase
Virginia, United States
Joined: April 29, 2003
KitMaker: 718 posts
Armorama: 684 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 01:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You have to take this into context. The threat over in Iraq is not another tank. Not a large call for 120mm main gun rounds being fired. The main role for the tanks is convoy escort and patrol duties with the main threats being snipers, IEDs, and dudes with RPGs. It is more important to have lots of .50 cal and .30 cal MG ammo for the guns than it is to carry 120mm main gun ammo. So a few rounds are carried if needed. For the major fights, like Falluja, the tanks were fully loaded.
Hello Gino,
I can't speak for the Army, but I know what the Marines load into their ammunition racks, (not too much room in those bins for .50 or .762). .50 is stored on the outside with as much strapped on as possible, and then the 6k+ of internal 7.62 stowage isn't too much need to carry a lot more. I would want a TO load of MPAT and Cannister, especially operating over there. OHHH, I forgot the Army didn't buy the Canister round..... I guess the Army didn't follow our lead on that one.
Semper Fi
Andy
Texas, United States
Joined: August 01, 2005
KitMaker: 87 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 02:14 PM UTC
army didnt buy the cannister my nomex covered hind end,,,,,,the ol m1028
gunner cannister troops,
identify troops
up
fire and adjust
on the way
all hell breaks loose,
target target cease fire
driver continue to bound
we have had it for almost a year
Tanks are the right and humane way to end any world scuffle, be it oil, civil unrest, foreign hostile regimes, weapons of mass distruction, and or just plain pissed at someone, so love and OBEY them
PFC. Jeff Jacobus
D-22 Gunner
1-8 cav 1 cd hooah
Indiana, United States
Joined: October 16, 2002
KitMaker: 5,272 posts
Armorama: 2,844 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 11:37 PM UTC
On January 10th 2005, an Abrams was destroyed by a massive IED, killing two and wounding four. To the best of my knowledge at least two Abrams crew members have been killed by IEDs.
The 14 Marines were in a AAV7A1 that was hit with a "massive shaped charge IED."
Shaun
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." Gerald Ford, August 12, 1974
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 2,709 posts
Armorama: 1,818 posts
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
On January 10th 2005, an Abrams was destroyed by a massive IED, killing two and wounding four. To the best of my knowledge at least two Abrams crew members have been killed by IEDs.
The 14 Marines were in a AAV7A1 that was hit with a "massive shaped charge IED."
Shaun
Forgive my ignorance on this question but i find it hard to understand how personnels protected by the tanks armor is still fatally wounded by an IED? I can understand when they are peering out that an IED can fatally wound them but does the armor not provide adequate protection to at least make it non fatal?
I know it aint indestructible but my impression on this tank was that it had an armor strong enough to at least withstand a hand grenade type explosion.
Please do correct me if im wrong.
Jeremy Wee
"A man is incomplete until he is married. After that, he is finished.."
Indiana, United States
Joined: October 16, 2002
KitMaker: 5,272 posts
Armorama: 2,844 posts
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:29 AM UTC
Jeremy,
Estimates I have gathered on the internet (so take that for what it is worth) of the size of the IED that destroyed the Abrams was about a ton. Two one thousand pound iron bombs buried in the road and remotely detonated when the Abrams drove over it. I don't know that you could design an AFV to withstand that.
Same with the vehicle the Marines were riding in. It was hard to even identify the vehicle the Marines were riding in based on the picures that were in Time magazine. Shredded. (God Bless them.)
It clearly wasn't something that either vehicle was designed to withstand, and I don't know how you would. I think less explosives were used, as far as mass, to level the federal building in Oklahoma City.
Shaun
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." Gerald Ford, August 12, 1974
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 2,709 posts
Armorama: 1,818 posts
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:39 AM UTC
I guess i had the impression that IEDs are usually relatively small. I stand corrected.
Thanks for the info anyways.
It always surprise me how explosives seems to be so readily available to these people in these regions. I have problems just buying alcohol in the local supermarket and getting the evils.
Jeremy Wee
"A man is incomplete until he is married. After that, he is finished.."
Indiana, United States
Joined: October 16, 2002
KitMaker: 5,272 posts
Armorama: 2,844 posts
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:58 AM UTC
Jeremy,
Consider yourself lucky that you live a country where you get dirty looks at the supermarket buying alcohol if the clerk thinks you may be under age.
Shaun
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." Gerald Ford, August 12, 1974
Virginia, United States
Joined: April 29, 2003
KitMaker: 718 posts
Armorama: 684 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 01:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
army didnt buy the cannister my nomex covered hind end,,,,,,the ol m1028
gunner cannister troops,
identify troops
up
fire and adjust
on the way
all hell breaks loose,
target target cease fire
driver continue to bound
we have had it for almost a year
Hello Jeff,
I was involved in the procurement process of the Cannister round from the Marine Corps side of the house. The Army did all of the initail work on the program, mainly they were looking to use this round in Korea. The Army had an urgent request, but in it's invinite wisdom decided against procuring the round. I then come along and asked all sorts of questions, and with the Marine Tankers adding a requirement and money the Round was produced for the Marine Corps, with the Army being given some rounds for testing, (ARMY developed the ballistic solution). Don't really need one in my opinion since it's a giant shotgun shell, but hey we wanted them to be happy. The last time I checked the rounds being produced for the Marine Corps with some going to the Army for further experimentation.
Semper FI
Andy
Sri Lanka
Joined: May 05, 2005
KitMaker: 2,174 posts
Armorama: 582 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 06:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I guess i had the impression that IEDs are usually relatively small. I stand corrected.
Jazza, IEDs are just that, improvised explosive devices, and can be small enough to take off a hand or foot, or as you can see, big enough to take out an MBT or a building.
Quoted Text
It always surprise me how explosives seems to be so readily available to these people in these regions. I have problems just buying alcohol in the local supermarket and getting the evils.
Well, when you live in a country that has survived three wars in less than twenty years and has just been peppered by enough heavy ordnance to realign the polar coordinates, you might just be able to gather enough TNT to flatten a small neighbourhood without too much trouble.
