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Nam 105mm ?
pfc
#333
Joined: October 13, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 03:09 PM UTC
While in transit from one place to another would the sites be left on or removed and would there be something over the end of the barrel to protect it from dust etc.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 03:22 PM UTC
Yes. It is a muzzle cover. Looks like a canvas bag with the bottom open and a cord that treads through either side of the open bottom and laces up.
Hard to see, but there is one one the M102 hanging below the Chinook.
One on this Aussie M119 as well.
Hard to see, but there is one one the M102 hanging below the Chinook.
One on this Aussie M119 as well.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 04:14 PM UTC
Yes, the sights are normally, but not always, removed for an airlift. Not so for vehicular movement, as you only have two minutes to get the gun into action. Optics, although robust, are still the weak link in the system. Having the pantel get caught on a lift strap would certainly screw it up. By the way, I cut my teeth on the old one oh deuce and M119. Nice pics.
pfc
#333
Joined: October 13, 2002
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:40 PM UTC
Thanks for the info guys very helpful.
ShermiesRule
Joined: December 11, 2003
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2005 - 01:40 PM UTC
How heavy is the 105mm? If the gun were set up to fire one direction and the enemy was spotted 90 degrees to the side could one person pick up the arms and wheel it 90 degrees? Two people? More?
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2005 - 02:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
How heavy is the 105mm? If the gun were set up to fire one direction and the enemy was spotted 90 degrees to the side could one person pick up the arms and wheel it 90 degrees? Two people? More?
Don't know the exact weight, but they are relatively light and can be traversed quickly by a couple guys. On the M102, there is a roller drum at the rear that is perpendicular to the trails and the pivot point under the front that allows quick traverse as well. They are all balanced well and pretty easy to move around.
Hopefully, the enemy never gets close enough for you to see him, especially on your flank. If this happens, your front line has been penetrated and you are no longer an artilleryman, but an infantryman with a big gun. Howitzers are not very effective in direct fire mode.
keenan
Joined: October 16, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 01:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If this happens, your front line has been penetrated and you are no longer an artilleryman, but an infantryman with a big gun.
That has to be one of the funniest things I have read in a long time.
Shaun
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 05:42 AM UTC
I know one gentleman that didn't find it particularly funny. He was the battalion cmdr at the time, his firebase got over-run and they fought for survival. He had his troops actually do that. His name is Charles Rodgers....he won the Medal of Honor for this action. I had the priveledge of knowing him, and actually sort of dated his daughter a couple of times.
This is not meant as a slap Shaun, just a chance to honor one of the nation's heros.
Steve
This is not meant as a slap Shaun, just a chance to honor one of the nation's heros.
Steve
Murdo
Joined: May 25, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 07:33 AM UTC
All branches of all armed forces are just Infantry with bigger guns. Take away the aircraft , bigger guns and Ships (just an expensive Infantry taxi) and you have... TADA!!!! INFANTRY!! 
Infantry rule!
(Sniggers, grabs bone dome and starts digging!) :-) :-) :-)
Infantry rule!
(Sniggers, grabs bone dome and starts digging!) :-) :-) :-)
kkeefe
Joined: May 12, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 02:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
How heavy is the 105mm?
IIRC, the M2/M101 weighed in around 2-1/2 tons! This was the only major drawback to that otherwise excellent (and extremely popular) artillery piece.
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 08:56 AM UTC
A really good mate of mine was in "I"Battery, 3rd Batt 11th marnies,1st Div (rein)( 155mm howitzer's) from 64-68, I remember him telling me of a time there base was over run, the whole infantry was wiped out, they were told to lower the barrels fill it with rocks, nails, any thing and blast that out. I cann't remember were it was, he was all ways in is it I CORPS, just below the DMZ, They were attacted to "Bobley's Barstards" for a while.
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 08:31 PM UTC
Gino is mostly correct with respect to howitzers not being a good direct fire weapon. Against hard targets like armor. The problem is that you really don't have good armor piercing fuzes. A Point Detonating fuze on a 155mm HE round, will probably give a tanker a serious headache, but that'll just piss him off.
But the "beehive" round for the 105mm, which is designed for anti-personnel use turns that big "gun" into a big SHOTgun. If I'm not mistaken these were designed during the Vietnam war for exactly that purpose, to defend the firebase from infantry assault.
To Alan's question about "shifting trails", on the M102, as Gino said, it sits on a base plate and has a box trail with a wheel at the end and you simply turn it around. WIth the older "split trail" M101 version, the trails had spades on the end and were dug in to keep the howitzer from moving too much during recoil. If you did have to move, it would usually take about 4-6 guys (half on each trail) to move the howitzer after you got the spades out. Although the gun was heavy, it was reasonably balanced over the wheels so it wasn't TOO hard. Again, the 6400 mil capability required in Vietnam fighting was a driving factor in the M102's design.
Now if you're talking about the old M114 155mm howitzer, shifting the trails on that took about 10 guys, and you found out why the piece was "affectionately" known as "The Pig" :-)
Tom
But the "beehive" round for the 105mm, which is designed for anti-personnel use turns that big "gun" into a big SHOTgun. If I'm not mistaken these were designed during the Vietnam war for exactly that purpose, to defend the firebase from infantry assault.
To Alan's question about "shifting trails", on the M102, as Gino said, it sits on a base plate and has a box trail with a wheel at the end and you simply turn it around. WIth the older "split trail" M101 version, the trails had spades on the end and were dug in to keep the howitzer from moving too much during recoil. If you did have to move, it would usually take about 4-6 guys (half on each trail) to move the howitzer after you got the spades out. Although the gun was heavy, it was reasonably balanced over the wheels so it wasn't TOO hard. Again, the 6400 mil capability required in Vietnam fighting was a driving factor in the M102's design.
Now if you're talking about the old M114 155mm howitzer, shifting the trails on that took about 10 guys, and you found out why the piece was "affectionately" known as "The Pig" :-)
Tom
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
KitMaker: 210 posts
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Posted: Friday, March 10, 2006 - 07:37 AM UTC
Tom, that "BEE HIVE" round, did they make a "Beehive" round for shot guns? I remeber my good friend telling me about a beehive round it had 21 steel darts in it, his exact words were, ( in a mid-western accent) " you good leave a mother [auto-censored]er tacked to a tree",
He was in an Artillary unit, In all the photos i have, of his time in the Marnies,(64-68) they only had the old 105mm Howitzers, his unit "I" Battery 3rd Battalion,11th Marnies 1st Marnie Division( rein) FMF, used 155mm Howitzers, I know his unit was around Da-Nang, but can any one tell me how to find out the names of the fire bases he was at and where they were moved to and operations they were on?
There is some photos dated 65, the base is near a beach as there is sand every were the Howiters have Camoflarge neeting over the howiters to hid there postion from the air?
I know they were in operetion Texas, De-Soto, Hotsprings, can any one tell me how to find out more?
I wont to build a Diorama, of a photo out of an old "SEA-TIGER" paper from 1966, Can any one tell me who, makes a 155mm howitzer?
He was in an Artillary unit, In all the photos i have, of his time in the Marnies,(64-68) they only had the old 105mm Howitzers, his unit "I" Battery 3rd Battalion,11th Marnies 1st Marnie Division( rein) FMF, used 155mm Howitzers, I know his unit was around Da-Nang, but can any one tell me how to find out the names of the fire bases he was at and where they were moved to and operations they were on?
There is some photos dated 65, the base is near a beach as there is sand every were the Howiters have Camoflarge neeting over the howiters to hid there postion from the air?
I know they were in operetion Texas, De-Soto, Hotsprings, can any one tell me how to find out more?
I wont to build a Diorama, of a photo out of an old "SEA-TIGER" paper from 1966, Can any one tell me who, makes a 155mm howitzer?
matt
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: February 28, 2002
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Posted: Friday, March 10, 2006 - 07:52 AM UTC
They Palied with Fletchette rounds for Shotguns as well they were in 12ga
Quoted Text
Flechettes are fin stabilized steel projectiles similar in appearance to arrows which have a long history of munitions use. Though flechette use has a long history; the use of flechette projectiles was rekindled during the Korean War due to the tactic of human wave attacks by the Chinese Army. This created a need for the use of multiple projectile systems. Some still in use today. One use developed was the use in small arms including Shotguns. This also proved to be an effective round during the Vietnam conflict due to it's ability to penetrate thick cover. Pictured above are the 8 grain fletchettes as used in 12 GA shotgun rounds. Original rounds held 20 flechettes per shell. These were also used in a M79 Grenade Launcher round.
TacFireGuru
Joined: December 25, 2004
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Posted: Friday, March 10, 2006 - 07:59 AM UTC
Can't help on your question, but I can "relate:"
My buddy in the 101st had the UNFORTUNATE opportunity to direct fire against some Iraqi BMPs(?) and tanks, and then quickly become Infantry. Pop guns are REALLY not that good against armor. A few other direct fires from the Battery, a couple of AT-4's (or were they LAWs during the 1st Gulf War) (getting CRS), and some support from the "Fly boys," and all was well.
Mike (++) (++)
My buddy in the 101st had the UNFORTUNATE opportunity to direct fire against some Iraqi BMPs(?) and tanks, and then quickly become Infantry. Pop guns are REALLY not that good against armor. A few other direct fires from the Battery, a couple of AT-4's (or were they LAWs during the 1st Gulf War) (getting CRS), and some support from the "Fly boys," and all was well.
Mike (++) (++)
gcdavidson
Joined: August 05, 2003
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Posted: Friday, March 10, 2006 - 11:12 PM UTC
Quoted Text
While in transit from one place to another would the sites be left on or removed and would there be something over the end of the barrel to protect it from dust etc.
Both sights are always removed for transport. Normally, they are stored in the padded box on the front of the gun shield, however lots of times we just carried in them in the back of the gun tractor. The sights take about 2 seconds to clip on to the mounts, and any time you move, the gun needs to be layed (fixed & oriented) , so there is no speed advantage to be gained by leaving the sight on during transport. Also, if you loose the sight while in transit, your gun det will be unable to fire until the BSM brings you a new one...at which time you will wish you'd fallen out the back of the truck along with the sight!
jlmurc
Joined: August 29, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 06:21 AM UTC
All branches of all armed forces are just Infantry with bigger guns.
I imagine that if you button up and wait for recovery, that might just be a way of getting killed by an infantryman with an RPG or similar.
I thought that all soldiers were trained as infantrymen during basic training before getting near any trade toys, I most definitely was as I learned to act as a ground pounder, before getting trained as an armoured crewman.
We all joke about the infantry but none of us cannot survive without their skills to protect us and keep us safe, despite sitting in a 60 ton missile target.
John
I imagine that if you button up and wait for recovery, that might just be a way of getting killed by an infantryman with an RPG or similar.
I thought that all soldiers were trained as infantrymen during basic training before getting near any trade toys, I most definitely was as I learned to act as a ground pounder, before getting trained as an armoured crewman.
We all joke about the infantry but none of us cannot survive without their skills to protect us and keep us safe, despite sitting in a 60 ton missile target.
John
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
KitMaker: 210 posts
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Posted: Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 08:23 AM UTC
"Every Marnie is a rifleman", isn't that the saying.
Next to gun pits in some of the photos i have of my mate in nam, at several differnt sights you can always see a .50cal and tirpod mounted M-60's near their "Gun's".
I have some photo's of them going on operation, with the howiters, being towed by truck, the area's were they set up looks preety basic, to say the least.
I remember him telling me that they set up camp on some grave sight outside of a villiage some where around Da-Nang.
He told me at one of the Fire bases that he was at they had a young girl deliver ice to them, the VC put expolsives in her bike and you can guess the rest!
Next to gun pits in some of the photos i have of my mate in nam, at several differnt sights you can always see a .50cal and tirpod mounted M-60's near their "Gun's".
I have some photo's of them going on operation, with the howiters, being towed by truck, the area's were they set up looks preety basic, to say the least.
I remember him telling me that they set up camp on some grave sight outside of a villiage some where around Da-Nang.
He told me at one of the Fire bases that he was at they had a young girl deliver ice to them, the VC put expolsives in her bike and you can guess the rest!
Whiskey6
Joined: August 15, 2006
KitMaker: 408 posts
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 07:55 AM UTC
When I was in the Danang area in 1969 - 1970, Marine artillery units (1st Bn 11th Marines and 4th Bn 11th Marines) were located as follows:
A/1/11 - Hill 55 (M101 - 105mm How)
B/1/11 - China Beach (M101 - 105mm How)
C/1/11 - Northern Artillery Contonement (M101 - 105mm How)
W/1/11 - Hill 10 (3 guns) and Hai Van Pass (3 Guns) (M30 - 107mm Mortars)
K/4/11 - Northern Artillery Contonement (M109 - 155mm How, SP)
I commanded Whiskey Battery for a while and then was the S2, S5 and a Battalion FDO for 1/11. W/1/11 also had one M-114 155mm How which it used when it displaced to Hill 270 from Hill 10. the 155 was used for direct fire into a cave complex opposite Hill 270....with dramatic effect.
Our accuracy was quite good. The pieces were surveyed in to the nearest centimeter in northing and easting. Mets were run every 4 hours. Projo weights and powder temps were measured and recorded. We had a brand new FADAC in addition to our charts and GFT's. We also had an integrated observation device on Hill 270 that included a laser range finder (Star wars technology for that time!)
On one fire mission we pulled all of that together and nailed two NVA messengers while they were running down the trail on Charlie Ridge with one 105 round from Alpha Btry at a range of 7000 meters!
After reading another thread, I need to insert here that I don't think any of us felt like "bait". We pretty much slaughtered the NVA anytime they came within range.
Whiskey6
A/1/11 - Hill 55 (M101 - 105mm How)
B/1/11 - China Beach (M101 - 105mm How)
C/1/11 - Northern Artillery Contonement (M101 - 105mm How)
W/1/11 - Hill 10 (3 guns) and Hai Van Pass (3 Guns) (M30 - 107mm Mortars)
K/4/11 - Northern Artillery Contonement (M109 - 155mm How, SP)
I commanded Whiskey Battery for a while and then was the S2, S5 and a Battalion FDO for 1/11. W/1/11 also had one M-114 155mm How which it used when it displaced to Hill 270 from Hill 10. the 155 was used for direct fire into a cave complex opposite Hill 270....with dramatic effect.
Our accuracy was quite good. The pieces were surveyed in to the nearest centimeter in northing and easting. Mets were run every 4 hours. Projo weights and powder temps were measured and recorded. We had a brand new FADAC in addition to our charts and GFT's. We also had an integrated observation device on Hill 270 that included a laser range finder (Star wars technology for that time!)
On one fire mission we pulled all of that together and nailed two NVA messengers while they were running down the trail on Charlie Ridge with one 105 round from Alpha Btry at a range of 7000 meters!
After reading another thread, I need to insert here that I don't think any of us felt like "bait". We pretty much slaughtered the NVA anytime they came within range.
Whiskey6
TacFireGuru
Joined: December 25, 2004
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 08:21 AM UTC
Damn Wiskey6! A Freddy?? You had a BRAND NEW FADAC???? Sorry, couldn't resist. Did two years in Germany (82-84) with TacFire then shipped to LA to a FADAC Battalion.....talk about a "butt-ugly" box!! Give me a TacFire shelter any day!! A/C, 110V,...........did that through the Gulf War.....then got IFSAS (Bosnia).......ran some M16/4 ranges instead of going back to the Artillery and AFATADS.
Mike
Mike
Removed by original poster on 09/02/06 - 16:01:37 (GMT).
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
KitMaker: 1,610 posts
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Posted: Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 04:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Damn Wiskey6! A Freddy?? You had a BRAND NEW FADAC???? .....talk about a "butt-ugly" box!!
Mike
It might have been ugly but at LEAST it took up a lot of space!!! Here's my FDC in Germany in 1974.
Tom
Whiskey6
Joined: August 15, 2006
KitMaker: 408 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 07:43 AM UTC
Tom -
WOW! It is clear that I have a ways to go to get my skills up to snuff!
How did you do the RDP (Range Deflection Protractor for those that haven't done the business without computers) and chart? Do you have pins in the chart?
Dave
WOW! It is clear that I have a ways to go to get my skills up to snuff!
How did you do the RDP (Range Deflection Protractor for those that haven't done the business without computers) and chart? Do you have pins in the chart?
Dave
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
KitMaker: 1,610 posts
Armorama: 684 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 08:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Tom -
How did you do the RDP (Range Deflection Protractor for those that haven't done the business without computers) and chart? Do you have pins in the chart?
Dave
Sure, can't you see 'em? :-) :-) :-)
The RDP was cut out of sheet styrene with a trusty #11 Exacto blade. The pattern for it, and everything else to include the chart, GFT, GST, and the safety chart, the ammo board and the Fire Mission and Registration forms were all copied out of good old FM 6-40 and then reduced on a copying machine until I got them shrunk down to the right size. And good old Freddie is a scratch build as well.
In one of the other photos, you can see a map of the Baumholder MTA, (and there's another "Sit Map" inside the track) which I did by taking several photographs of my old maps at various distances and using the print that was the right size.
If I were to do something like that now, I'd just use the computer and digital photography, but this build is a lot older than that!!!
You can't tell from the photo, but the hootch frame is aluminum tubing and some of the kit parts. It actually collapses just like the real one and stores on the back in the rack.
Tom
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