When are we going to get a up to date M60a2?
With all of the attention that obsucre WWII armor is getting, one would think that we would get to se an up to date version of one of the stranger models of the M60?
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M60A2
dgrady72
Joined: September 19, 2005
KitMaker: 75 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 12:48 AM UTC
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 01:45 AM UTC
Good question. I am actually building one now using the Tamiya M60A2 turret with Revell of Germany (ex-Esci mold) M60A3 hull, and pieces / parts from other M48/M60 kits (searchlight for example), and some custom resin pieces from another modeler and ones that I made to get a good, late version with CBSS. I'll post up some pics as I get further along.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 02:46 AM UTC
I doubt we will get an updated kit. The M60A2 was a failure and only served for a blip in time. If it had been a WW2 German armor piece, we'd get one done by a major manufacturer. We should be thankful that the Tamiya kit surfaces every so often and that it is relatively easy to mate it with the former Esci kits to create a decent likeness.
At least a plastic kit existed in 1/72, 1/48 and 1/35 scale.
At least a plastic kit existed in 1/72, 1/48 and 1/35 scale.
dgrady72
Joined: September 19, 2005
KitMaker: 75 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 02:52 AM UTC
I am planning to use the old Academy M60a1 Rise Passive hull. Is there a list of tweaks for the turret, and is the Academy a1 hull correct?
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 03:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am planning to use the old Academy M60a1 Rise Passive hull. Is there a list of tweaks for the turret, and is the Academy a1 hull correct?
The Academy M60A1 hull is only slightly better than the original Tamiya hull, it is a direct copy with new road wheels. Also, most M60A2s had the aluminum, finned roadwheels, not the steel road wheels as in the Academy kit. Best combo is the old Esci M60A3 hull with the Tamiya turret. Here is a comparison between the Acadamy, Tamiya, and Esci M60 kits.
M60 Comparison.
The key for the hull is to use the later, top loading air cleaners. Other than that, you can build an early M60A2, without CBSS from any M60 hull. With CBSS requires a rework of the rear hull plate.
As for the turret, no tweak list that I know of. Here are a couple corrections/additions. The search light is horrible and soft on detail, replace it with one from an M48 kit. Turret needs to have cast texture added over all of it. I have been told the bustle racks (storage baskets) are 1/4 inch too large, I am not tackling that beast though, they look fine to me. Commander's M85 MG barrel is a blob, replace with one from another M60 kit. Just make sure you clean up all the mold lines, there are quite a few. Other than the above, it looks pretty good and is a good representation of an M60A2 turret. Looking at the kit, you can tell the differance in quality between the hull and turret parts. the turret is much nicer and has finer details than the ancient hull.
This site may help some, few descent M60A2 builds there.
Patton-Mania
Great referance shots at Tanx Heaven as well.
Good luck with yours.
Rob, Which would be a better choice of track for a late CBSS M60A2, chevron or octagonal block? I know both were used, which was more common?
rfeehan
Joined: July 20, 2003
KitMaker: 727 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 03:13 AM UTC
I would be very interested in seeing a list of tweaks for an M60A2 build.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 03:28 AM UTC
I do know that the AEF Designs M60A2 turret is not better than the kit one. Someone had one and warned me about purchasing one. I had seen one at a show after being warned. I am glad I did not spend money on one.
The biggest inaccuracy in all of the current kit hulls is the lack of the CBSS bulge on the lower portion of the rear of the hull. Robert Skipper (you can look up contact information for him on Missing Links' modern armor forum) sent me a resin lower hull bulge that he made. Very nice item designed for the Esci (now Italeri and RoG) hulls.
If you want to do an early tank with side air cleaners, get the Italeri M60A1 or M60 Blazer. If you want to do a late M60A2, get the Revell M60A3 with the top loading air cleaners. You can also get the corresponding Esci or AMT/Ertl kits as well.
Each of the Esci/Italeri/RoG kits come with the later style T-142 tracks with octagonal track pads. Earlier tanks would have used the chevron patterned T-107 style tracks. AFV Club makes both styles of tracks.
The biggest inaccuracy in all of the current kit hulls is the lack of the CBSS bulge on the lower portion of the rear of the hull. Robert Skipper (you can look up contact information for him on Missing Links' modern armor forum) sent me a resin lower hull bulge that he made. Very nice item designed for the Esci (now Italeri and RoG) hulls.
If you want to do an early tank with side air cleaners, get the Italeri M60A1 or M60 Blazer. If you want to do a late M60A2, get the Revell M60A3 with the top loading air cleaners. You can also get the corresponding Esci or AMT/Ertl kits as well.
Each of the Esci/Italeri/RoG kits come with the later style T-142 tracks with octagonal track pads. Earlier tanks would have used the chevron patterned T-107 style tracks. AFV Club makes both styles of tracks.
Henk
Joined: August 07, 2004
KitMaker: 6,391 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 03:39 AM UTC
If somebody needs a searchlight for his conversion, I have the Tamiya M48 one spare, as I build mine without the searchlight.
As an aside, I know the light was part of the infrared targeting devize, but I never really liked the " HERE I AM " light right on top of the barrel. All the enemy needs to do is aim 20 inches below the light and BOOM
.
Cheers
Henk
As an aside, I know the light was part of the infrared targeting devize, but I never really liked the " HERE I AM " light right on top of the barrel. All the enemy needs to do is aim 20 inches below the light and BOOM
. Cheers
Henk
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 04:20 AM UTC
In addition to everything above, you can replace the first and last road wheels with steel wheels. And it's actually the turret bustle itself, not just the racks, that needs to be cut down 1/4 inch. That's based on scaling up the drawing n the Hunnicutt book anyway.
I also like to add casting marks over the loader's hatch. This is a poor pic but you get the idea:
This is the CBSS bulge. I built so many of these once I found it prudent to make a mold. It's quite simple, but this one includes the same casting mark. I tried to highlight it with silver so it's more visible.
I also like to add casting marks over the loader's hatch. This is a poor pic but you get the idea:
This is the CBSS bulge. I built so many of these once I found it prudent to make a mold. It's quite simple, but this one includes the same casting mark. I tried to highlight it with silver so it's more visible.
TankCarl
Joined: May 10, 2002
KitMaker: 3,581 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 04:31 AM UTC
I was a gunner on one in the 70's after they were issued. On my model,I used the 2 CBSS boxes to use as a strating point to build up the solid bulge the real tank had.All of our tanks had aluminum wheels.I wonder if any remained in service long enough to recieve steel roadwheels.
I bet an M60A2 would be a nice 3 in 1 for DML.Give the basic hull,and 3 turrets,
M-60
M-60A1
M-60A2.
There is a load of Cold war armor that has yet to be done.
(++) (++)
I bet an M60A2 would be a nice 3 in 1 for DML.Give the basic hull,and 3 turrets,
M-60
M-60A1
M-60A2.
There is a load of Cold war armor that has yet to be done.
(++) (++) HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 04:40 AM UTC
Yup, looks like the same CBSS bulge I got from Robert Skipper as well. Also added the foundry mark and some #s above the loader's hatch.
By the way, what exactly needs to be fixed with the bustle rack? Is it all around too big, or just the rails, just the supports, etc.?
By the way, what exactly needs to be fixed with the bustle rack? Is it all around too big, or just the rails, just the supports, etc.?
crockett
Joined: February 04, 2005
KitMaker: 370 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 05:39 AM UTC
Gino,
I crewed on this tank for a couple of years, and I never saw a "CBSS" bulge like you have modeled. Our grille doors opened just like the M60. The CBSS bulge was lower on the grille doors and not near as pronounced as the set up you have pictured. This may be a very early fabrication or prototype set up, but our tanks in Germany sure didn't look like that. All our tanks were equipped with the Closed breech scavenger system. The two air tanks were at the hull rear just behind the transmission, with the compressor on a PTO.
Here is a very bad pic from the TM manual to give some idea of the scale of the CBSS bulge;
Here are the top loading air cleaner boxes:
Some idea of the turret layout:
As for this tank being a failure, I think that the Army failed the tank and it's crews, not the other way around. When this vehicle was working properly, and I mean with a functioning missile system, it was lethal. The support level maintenance, spare parts, and properly trained mechanics and techs (the lack there of) was what hurt this system. Qualified personnel trained on the A2 at Knox were sent to A1 units, and vice versa. It was a mess.
I personally gunned C 50, 3/33rd Armor 3rd AD to high gun in US Army Europe in 1977, that's right, an M60A2! I know it was a good tank. The Army just didn't give it a chance. The missile system alone was a decade in the making, having been proposed in the late fifties.
Anyway, I'm ranting, Gino or anyone else, let me know if you need references, I have the full -10 and of course many field pics.
Regards,
Steve
I crewed on this tank for a couple of years, and I never saw a "CBSS" bulge like you have modeled. Our grille doors opened just like the M60. The CBSS bulge was lower on the grille doors and not near as pronounced as the set up you have pictured. This may be a very early fabrication or prototype set up, but our tanks in Germany sure didn't look like that. All our tanks were equipped with the Closed breech scavenger system. The two air tanks were at the hull rear just behind the transmission, with the compressor on a PTO.
Here is a very bad pic from the TM manual to give some idea of the scale of the CBSS bulge;
Here are the top loading air cleaner boxes:
Some idea of the turret layout:
As for this tank being a failure, I think that the Army failed the tank and it's crews, not the other way around. When this vehicle was working properly, and I mean with a functioning missile system, it was lethal. The support level maintenance, spare parts, and properly trained mechanics and techs (the lack there of) was what hurt this system. Qualified personnel trained on the A2 at Knox were sent to A1 units, and vice versa. It was a mess.
I personally gunned C 50, 3/33rd Armor 3rd AD to high gun in US Army Europe in 1977, that's right, an M60A2! I know it was a good tank. The Army just didn't give it a chance. The missile system alone was a decade in the making, having been proposed in the late fifties.
Anyway, I'm ranting, Gino or anyone else, let me know if you need references, I have the full -10 and of course many field pics.
Regards,
Steve
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 05:48 AM UTC
Crocket,
Yes, I think the bulge may be a little too big on mine too, but too late now. I based it on the pic I saw at Tanx Heaven. Like this one,
but I wasn't able to look directly at the pic when I was building it, kinda did it fom memory. Guess I was thinking big. Too late now, it's all superglued and cut to fit. I still like the look though, even if it is a bit beefy.
Yes, I think the bulge may be a little too big on mine too, but too late now. I based it on the pic I saw at Tanx Heaven. Like this one,
but I wasn't able to look directly at the pic when I was building it, kinda did it fom memory. Guess I was thinking big. Too late now, it's all superglued and cut to fit. I still like the look though, even if it is a bit beefy.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 06:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I crewed on this tank for a couple of years, and I never saw a "CBSS" bulge like you have modeled. Our grille doors opened just like the M60. The CBSS bulge was lower on the grille doors and not near as pronounced as the set up you have pictured.
Well, of course you're right. The CBSS casting is the corect size as it comes from measurements taken of an A2 headed for the scrapyard on a BNSF flat car. (I was actually indulging in one of my other hobbies that day)
It is simply a matter of the doors being too high up. When I made and cast the part, I left the doors off because I needed a place to pour in the resin, namely from the top. The casting rests even with the bottom of the doors. All it needs is .010 covers, and a lip from .010 x .040 strip.
It's not too late to fix the one Gino's doing. Here's another casting already installed on a WIP:
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 06:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Ain't that the truth. And if you chuck in a thermal shrouded gun tube, crosswind sensor, right optical blister w/door and a new doghouse cover, you would have a 4 in 1 kit (M60/A1/A2/A3). The A3 would require late style tracks that could be found on the A1 & A2 but probably not the Slick 60.I was a gunner on one in the 70's after they were issued. On my model,I used the 2 CBSS boxes to use as a strating point to build up the solid bulge the real tank had.All of our tanks had aluminum wheels.I wonder if any remained in service long enough to recieve steel roadwheels.
I bet an M60A2 would be a nice 3 in 1 for DML.Give the basic hull,and 3 turrets,
M-60
M-60A1
M-60A2.
There is a load of Cold war armor that has yet to be done.
I think I have a photo of an AVLB we had that used the M60A2 hull. I'll have to dig through the junk to find it though.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 06:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI crewed on this tank for a couple of years, and I never saw a "CBSS" bulge like you have modeled. Our grille doors opened just like the M60. The CBSS bulge was lower on the grille doors and not near as pronounced as the set up you have pictured.
Well, of course you're right. The CBSS casting is the corect size as it comes from measurements taken of an A2 headed for the scrapyard on a BNSF flat car. (I was actually indulging in one of my other hobbies that day)
It is simply a matter of the doors being too high up. When I made and cast the part, I left the doors off because I needed a place to pour in the resin, namely from the top. The casting rests even with the bottom of the doors. All it needs is .010 covers, and a lip from .010 x .040 strip.
It's not too late to fix the one Gino's doing. Here's another casting already installed on a WIP:
O.K., guess I'll fix that later. The one in the pic I posted looks like the upper part on the doors is a bit thicker than the one you have modeled though. Maybe it is just the angle or something.
TankCarl
Joined: May 10, 2002
KitMaker: 3,581 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:21 AM UTC
There are coupola details needed too.
Use the M-48 sand shields between the fenders and rear of tank.Add drain and level and fill holes on the final drives.
Don't forget the tow cables.Use the mounting balls too, from the M 48 searchlight.
(++) (++) 
salt6
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 796 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 12:45 PM UTC
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 03:52 PM UTC
My rebuilt CBSS bulge covers. How does it look now?
As you can see, I had to rebuild some of the fins on the doors, they didn't survive the removal of the past covers. Rebuilt the tow pintle to better match referances as well.
Also, for the more knowledgable out there. Which would be more accurate/common, chevron block or octagonal block tracks? I know both type were used, and I have both. Just wondering which would be more accurate. I'm leaning toward the chevron blocks.
As you can see, I had to rebuild some of the fins on the doors, they didn't survive the removal of the past covers. Rebuilt the tow pintle to better match referances as well.
Also, for the more knowledgable out there. Which would be more accurate/common, chevron block or octagonal block tracks? I know both type were used, and I have both. Just wondering which would be more accurate. I'm leaning toward the chevron blocks.
rebelsoldier
Joined: June 30, 2004
KitMaker: 1,336 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 05:07 PM UTC
great thread guys, learned lots from just reading it, and good sites to visit too
thanks
reb
thanks
reb
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 07:58 PM UTC
glad I haven't bilt my A2 yet. Never knew about that box on the rear, so now when I get around to it, it'll be more accurate. Oh Crockett congrats on beng number 1 in 77. I was in the top 10 that year winning my brigade and coming in second for 8th ID division honors.
TankCarl
Joined: May 10, 2002
KitMaker: 3,581 posts
Armorama: 2,782 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 10:57 PM UTC
I would go to the Octagonal block track.We recieved our tanks in Jan. 1976,and had the newer track on by labor day 1977.
The tow pintle mount should be about a scale 6" below the top of the CBSS bulge top.Think of the centerline of it being nearly parralell to the ground.If it is too low,it can;t swivel when towing and could flip what ever it tows,or damage a tow bar if being towed backwards. (++) (++)
The tow pintle mount should be about a scale 6" below the top of the CBSS bulge top.Think of the centerline of it being nearly parralell to the ground.If it is too low,it can;t swivel when towing and could flip what ever it tows,or damage a tow bar if being towed backwards.
(++) (++) crockett
Joined: February 04, 2005
KitMaker: 370 posts
Armorama: 302 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 01:32 AM UTC
Gino,
As to the track, I'd say it would be a toss up, preference really. Carl has stated that his unit got new track by labor day of '77, we didn't get ours until the end of the year. Either or, I would say.
Oh, and your retro fit looks great, good job on restoring the grille doors!
regards,
Steve
As to the track, I'd say it would be a toss up, preference really. Carl has stated that his unit got new track by labor day of '77, we didn't get ours until the end of the year. Either or, I would say.
Oh, and your retro fit looks great, good job on restoring the grille doors!
regards,
Steve
scooch59
Joined: June 10, 2006
KitMaker: 60 posts
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Posted: Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 01:41 AM UTC
I read your email on the spare night light that you had for your M-48 Tank that you didn't need. if the offer still available, I would be glad to purchase it, since I am making a Tamiya M-60A2 and could use the correct one-. If it is already gone- no problem- Thanks
SSGT Martin S. Kaufman
30 Dell Drive
New Haven, Connecticut-06513
USA
email address's 1). [email protected] {or my alternate} 2). [email protected]
SSGT Martin S. Kaufman
30 Dell Drive
New Haven, Connecticut-06513
USA
email address's 1). [email protected] {or my alternate} 2). [email protected]
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