Hi Folks

Sorry for the title, you will understand in a second. My latest project is the older Tamiya German Halftrack 251/1. I don't remember the kit number right off but for this its unimportant. I've spent the evening searching the web for some replacement tracks for the kit. The ones that come with the kit must be Mr Tamiya's idea of a bad joke. Anyway, after spending the better part of two hours going from web site to web site the cheapest set I can find was a Friuimodel set for $33.96 over at Internet Hobbies. I only paid $15;00 for the D@#% kit Where do these aftermarket companies get off robbing us blind by charging twice, TWICE the retail price of a entire kit . I'm sorry I don't normally go off like this, but how can the average person be expected to stay in the hobby with prices being so outrageous. I'm sorry again for venting, I just wanted to do it around folks that would undersstand and relate.

Harry

Harry,
tend to agree with you, seems crazy to have to spend so much on AM products especially when one AM product can some how be determined more expensive than the original kit!

Lee

The aftermarket stuff can be expensive, but there are less expensive options.

If you're a 251 fan, get the new DML kit 3-1 and build it as another version. There are parts in the box for a /9 with stub barrel 75mm and for the Infra Red equipped Falke APC in addition to a vanilla 251D.
But the real beauty is that the kit includes two sets of tracks, one set of pre-cut 'magic tracks' and a regular set of individual links. So this way you could get 2 models (useing spare DML parts to dress up the Tamiya old dog at the same time.) The 251's run about $25, still less than the Fruils.

AFV Club makes several sets of injection molded plastic individual links for less than that.

It sounds like you have the early 251 kit from Tamiya. Some folks might have a set of tracks from the later Tamiya 251D kit to spare if they chose to use aftermarket tracks on their kits and might let them go cheaply or even for postage if you asked.

Or you could find someone who only used one of the 2 sets that come in the new DML 251's.
Again, if you offered a small amount, or even to cover postage, someone might have a set to let go.

Mike

Harry,, I got one better. One of the Hobby shops in the area I live in wants more that AM for that same costs!!! Oddly enough its the Tamiya 251... They seem to mark all import kits up at that one shop. Most of us actually bocott that one shop and hang out at the local HobbyTown USA.

Now to answer your question I think Fruil tracks are priced that way for the materials and molding process for working with pewter (white metal). I also remember while living in Japan MK had a line nonworbable tracks for kits. They are currently back ordered at HLJ (www.hlj.com) but yiou might want check with Rainbow-ten or another Asian shop. Worst case senario is to buy whats available or use the kit stuff. On another note you can contact our illustrious HK conection and ask the Don to get you set there, but i recommend time not be an issue as the post sucks no matter what country you are in. HTH STUG

AFV Club sells their rubber band tracks for the SdKfz251 in separate packets. Squadron has them listed for $8.46 or so.

Don't know if they're the quality you are looking for though - or if they will fit the Tamiya kit....

hth

cn

I feel your pain.
Great Models has AFV Club tracks in stock for $15.95 (see the second part listed below. They are the "late" style. GM also has some described as "latest" style. I'm not sure what the differences are.

The first part listed below is the set with the suspension assy that was made to be used on the Tamiya kit. It also comes with front wheels and nice rubber tracks. Unfortunately they are out of production. They would be the best bet.....if you could find some.

If you copy and paste the descriptions into the search window at greatmodels.com you can see what they look like and read some reviews.
1/35 av35043 Wheels for Sd.Kfz.251
1/35 av35069 Sd. Kfz. 251 Track (Late)
Hope this helps.

There is no roberry at work. The aftermarket "gets away with it" because modelers are willing to pay.
There is always the good 'ol fashioned method; build the kits OOTB.

Yah, they do get away with it because we are dumb enough to spend the money on the AM. I usually figure that a kit will cost me at least twice what I paid for the original kit AFTER the AM parts are added in and the "extra" supplies that I get, too.
It's like those little eyedroppers you get in the LHS that sell for a package of 5 for $2.99CDN. I get mine from the medical supply, in a box of about 1,000 for alot less for what we pay/item in the LHS. (Either that or I take them from my workbench at work.) Mark something for a hobby accessory and you can jack up the price a heck of alot!!!

All the reviews which this site has published on Kits, Reference and AfterMarket can be found in one handy, bite-sized article:HERE ...Jim

Buyers market. You buy it or you don't buy it - that is your choice, your dollar. That is the great thing about free-market economics...

Sometimes I wonder if the anger I frequently see directed at the AM people, would be better towards some of the kit manufacturers. I have a lot of contact (for the site) with AM people and they are always ready to listen to suggestions and for many of them, it is a 2nd job. Their production costs are high for several reasons:

1) The costs of the 'raw' materials such as resin

2) The fact they are producing fairly limited 'runs' of AM sets means that they can't produce 20,000 units (or more) like an injection moulded kit..

3) Often they will have to 'sub-contract' for elements which they technically can't produce themselves (turned gun barrels for example.

In general, they do a superb job something that we as modellers can applaud or criticize however 'robbery' goes a touch far...

Back to the original question, the differential between out-dated garbage (the Tamiya 251 kits) and AFV Club/Dragon's251 series is so enormous (quality, range and inclusion of AM parts) makes me wonder if you aren't going to have a very frustrating and expensive time of it. Why not simply go for an AFV Club or DML 251 in the first place?...Jim

Accurate Armour also has a set of 251 tracks in their track packs series for about $20 (US).
capnjock

Couple of comments about the cost of Fruil tracks:
I work in the metal casting industry, at a production gray iron jobbing foundry where we make everything from stadium seat sides to hubs for utility trailers. We make roughly 1500 different castings for about 160 different customers. We make quantities from a couple hundred annually to half a million. Our in house percent scrap runs about 3 percent.
That said, when I opened my first set of Fruil tracks, I was amazed. I am still having a hard time figuring out exactly how they cast those track links with that much detail out of white metal. (White metal is lead based BTW, and I imagine the health and environmental hoops you have to jump through just to melt and pour it must be amazing.) The hole for the wire used hold the tracks together is cast in, which means they have to have loose pieces in the mold somewhere that they pull out before they open the mold, the same way the “new” DML slide molding technique works. I have been working in metal casting tooling design for twenty years and would really like to get a look at the mold they use to cast those tracks.
And, I bet their scrap percentages are high. I am not saying they are not extremely good at what they do; I am just saying that pouring molten metal is a “near run thing” at best. We pour 160 tons a day, have our ISO 9001-2000 certification and still run 3% scrap. Pouring a lead based alloy, casting part parts that small, in a mold with loose pull backs has to be really fiddly. I have a reputation here for tooling anything but I wouldn’t want to mess with that. If it was easy to make them, you would think someone else would be doing by now.

Shaun

This is a hobby. Nothing , not a single thing, we buy to support it is a necessity. We don't NEED AM tracks and turned barrels, we don't NEED PE sets, we don't NEED expensive paints in little bottles, we don't even NEED the models these items can be purchased for. We are all free to spend as much or as little as our budgets allow. I have never used Friuls because I can't justify the price to myself. On the other hand, I have no problem paying $32 for a single Pegaso figure if I like the character and the pose. Both companies are offering a product at a price that we are either willling to pay or not. Neither is gouging since we don't NEED their stuff.

Consider the concept of retail as well. About 40% of the cost goes to the person selling the item to you. About 20% of his cost goes to the distributor. The rest goes to the manufacturer. Each of these people have to pay taxes, rent, insurance, and other operating costs before they even start to pay themselves.

A retailer of Friuls such as Michigan Toy, has to have on hand just about the entire range of these items, tying up a pretty big piece of capital. Demand on them drops off, I'm sure, pretty precipitously as the novelty of the related subject wanes. Still they have to have the right tracks for a Rakattenwagen III-d Ausf 5 as used in the winter of 1942 in Belgium or the customer is going to be upset and will take his business elsewhere.

I agree with most of the posts, they are costly and the subtle differnces AM producst make sometimes go unoticed by the average Joe Blow that may view your model

Very right!

Look at the reviews and only buy kits that are sufficiently detailed OOB. Buying into all that expensive aftermarket stuff just enables the big manufacturers to keep outdated models in production.

Further, if you think that the aftermarket stuff is robbery. Is it that nice from Tamiya to maintain kits with poor quality tracks on the market??

I will leave the "cost" and "robbery" comments to others. I purchase Fruilmodellisimo because I have worked hard and I can afford it. Very simple. There was a time when I couldn't afford it, so I went without. I like the way these AM tracks look, assemble and I appreciate them for what they bring to a kit.

If you have to ask how much, then you shouldn't buy.
The hobby is for fun, not consternation over a few dollars. When you compare modelling to say, golf, shooting, collecting, etc., it is probably one of the cheapest pastimes around.

I love my Fruils, and I purchase AM accessories when I want to.
et.com/albums/v282/crockett007/8tonfruil1.jpg[/IMG]

I completely agree with crocket.
I can pay this (expensive) stuff and buy because I love the way the track

greetingss look and like the way they assemble...

If you want better tracks (I know how the Tamyia one suck!) here is a great comparison. I hope this helps.



[url=http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/misc/251track.htm[/url]

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/misc/251track.htm

Amen brother Jim and Al,

I agree with what both of you said.

Harry I can see your frustration, but a little research goes a long way.

If you want to purchase a kit and then detail the heck out of it, yeah its going to cost extra.
That's why we have AM companies. They offer us an improved product over the OEM.

If the Oem creates a product that cant be beat, then there is no need for AM, kind of like what the folks over at Dragon USA are doing. It will be difficult for the Am's to improve on their product.

This is a good thing. Our dollars will go more to Dragon than the other OEM's for this reason.
And as this starts to happen, others will follow.

It's not like there's only one product out there. Shop around before you commit to buy. Look for reviews on that paticular kit you want or already have to see what others have to say. That alone is what determines if I buy a kit or not.

See if that kit thats been sitting on your shelf for the last 5yrs is worth taking down.

If it wasn't for the competition in our hobby, we would be stuck w/ the rubber bad tracks from these older kits.

And if this were the case, I'd bet my bottom dollar you would pay just about anything to get your hands on that truly amazingly detailed set of tracks for your AFV that sets your kit apart from the rest! AM I right? I know I would.

Hats Off to the small AM groups that are out there listening to our wants and needs, because if it wasnt for them, we truly would have room to GRIPE!

Enuff said,

Steve

p.s. The next time I go buy a new car, I think I will opt for those chrome wheels. That will set me apart from the rest of the average folks! LOL

:-)

God gave us the power of choice. Everyday we are faced with this in everything you do. Should I run that yellow light or stop now, should I get whole wheat or white bread. So, should I get metal or plastic tracks for my model. Gripe about things you have no choice in like the price of gasoline, or the weather.

Hi All,
I've been modeling seriously since 1996, but had been building since 1984. I saw Verlinden arrive and then MPmodels come and go, as well as a horde of other after-market companies. At first, I agreed the prices were "ghastly," especially considering my meager budget back then. Now, as an adult, I realize that many of the people engaged in the after-market industry are doing this as THEIR PRIMARY OCCUPATION . This being the case, they have to pay for rent/mortgage, food, gas for their cars, the kid's college fund, their retirement, etc. That all adds up (and does so really fast) and there is a small consumer base to draw on, hence the high prices.
Now, concerning the SdKfz 251 track issue, there is a company called linkmodel workshop (or close to that) that sells a set of "non-workable" SdKfz 251 track. If assembled carefully they can be made workable. The price is under US$10 a set! With a little detective work, you can find real bargains in the modeling world. Also, check out WW2 productions (a google search should turn them up). Depending on the home currency, they sell for about US$25-30 per set, even with shipping. I hope that helps to clear some things up.
Regards,
Georg

Well, the answer to all the questions is both yes and no.

Probably the two biggest misconceptions here are:

1. Fruil tracks are for everyone. Nope, they are the cadillac of the aftermarket track world. Best advice was to use/get ahold of the extra set in SOME of the DML kits. IF you are doing Tamiya's old 251/1-C kit, you may be out of luck as only the DML 251/?-D's carry the extra tracks. I am assuming the non-majic tracks in these kits is appropriate for a -C?

2. Fruil tracks are made with MUCH LOOSER environmental rules. I have heard that several European modellers have banned from using Fruil tracks because of the pollution they cause right now. I have no way to confirm this, so it is ONLY HERESAY. However, I cannot deny this either. Having done foundry work myself, I would not be surprised that a E. European country was polluting to make a better buck.

As for aftermarket in general, it serves two purposes:

1. To correct a flaw in a kit that people do not want to fix themselves. This is basically time savings for a modeller.

2. To offer a product that has not been released by a major manufacturer. These kits are a gamble, rubber and resin are not cheap by any stretch, and so prices are higher since production runs can be as low as 20 kits from which to break even, let alone make a profit.

Best bet if on a tight budget woudl be to get the best model for your money. Research and asking questions will help take a lot of the sting out of the price, and if you look hard enough, even good, expensive kits can be found at a good discount.

do liek me and wait for a new dragon release to buy a kit :-) not much am required anymroe with dragon.

Francois

As for Friulmodelismo products, they have been produced in Hungary for the last 4-5 years, and I can tell you that the environmental regulations in Hungary are equally strict as anywhere in the other EU countries. I have wondered why the producer moved from Italy to Hungary, but definitely not because he could pollute more easily...