Anybody have any experience simulating a muzzle flash from a rifle? I tried it today using cotton and it looked like a flame-thrower! I super-glued a little piece of cotton to the tip of the barrel and then attempted to thin and shape it but it didn't come out as I invisioned.

Matt #:-)

Good idea, anybody know how to create realistic looking muzzle flash. This is something I haven't seen discussed before.

Leader

A late, great model builder once did a dio with the Tamiya SAS jeep attacking a German supply depot. He used, if I remember, clear stretche sprue. I'd add a touch of clear orange or amber at the end of the barrel.

A muzzle flash lasts but a mili-second and isn't that large.Try making a very small flash at the tip surrounded by smoke.It would be extremely hard to make one and i am just therorizing,but,what scale is this?What type of rifle?.A musket would produce a much larger smoke plume where as a Thompson would produce almost none during firing.I could only try to give you a few suggestions without the information.

Al,

Was this for the flash or to show the trajectory of the rounds?

I would think that, at least in 1/35th scale that the muzzle flash would be extremely minimal.

Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature

It's been 20+ years since I saw this. I think it was just the flash since this was from a .50 cal Browning and there were bullet holes in barrels (with water pouring from one 55 gallon drum).

I'm not sure what type of rifle it is, it looks very similar to an M-1 Garand, but it came with Russian figures. I was just trying to capture the moment a sniper takes a shot. If I were to use stretched sprue to create a small flash, what would I use for smoke? A small ring of cotton? At it's longest point, about how long would a flash be from (let's just say) an M-1?

Matt

Matt,
What about what the shadow box dio guys do with wheat of grain bulbs to light up the muzzles of the figures weapons?instead of wiring it up use the bulbs and paint with the transparent paint just a thought.

Thomas

Good idea, I'm trying to picture it in my head. Do the bulbs come to a point at the end, or are they rounded? Both styles? Maybe I'll go to Radio Shack tomorrow and look into that, do they have bulbs already colored? I would still have the smoke problem, any solutions for that?

Matt

I'd stay away from that. Muzzle flash is always there in movies, but from shooting military rifles (1000's of rounds, mostly 7.62 mm FAL) I can't remember seeing those. I think it depends on the type of gun, though. No matter how good you can imitate those in a dio - quite a challenge - I think it will always look a bit goofy.

True, and it´s understandable to create more dramatic effect. Also artillery shells and explosions in movies generally look like gasoline is blown up. When a fragment shell hits the ground, there is just a sudden flash of light in the point of impact, the rest is smoke, debris and soil.
I remember seeing a muzzle flash in modern RK62 assault rifle twice at the shooting range and only because it was dark. The flash was about 30 cm in lenght.
I´m pretty sceptical to the idea of representing flames, explosions and muzzle flashes in a dio. Of course, if somebody comes up with an idea to make explosion debris hang in the air, I´m all ears! #:-)

Toni

BTW, have you noticed that in the movies guns have little if any recoil? In Matrix even the shotguns don´t have any. I remember they had to loosen the slide action of 92 Berettas in a John Woo flick because the recoil of blanks wasn´t enough to eject the casing. The result was that you could see the slide movement with bare eye. Which, to my eye, looks stupid. But the muzzle flames were gigantic!

I appreciate everybody's input. If any of you were representing the moment a gun was fired, how would you illustrate it? Would you just leave it as is? Isn't there any way to simulate the difference of a soldier firing compared to just aiming?

Matt

Here's a claymore, big quick flash ahd a lot of smoke.

I would think that manufacturing a muzzle flash would be very difficult especially in the smaller scales. I suppose for the larger dios you could try to place some fibre optics in the weapon but this is beyond my knowledge.
Another factor would be when is dio going to take place? Stand by for some weapon history.
Very early weapons made no effort to conceal there muzzle flash so it came out of the muzzle and expanded in all directions.
Then they tried to have flash hiders. These were conical pieces added to the end of weapons to restrict the flash and project it all forwards to try to hide the firers.(the Brengun is a good example) Alot of weapons in WW2 didn't bother.
Now modern weapons have flash eliminators, this is the final piece at the muzzle ended and has usually horizontal slots cut in it. This allows the flash out of the sides but in a 'star' type shape and helps to dissipate the flash quickly.
I think to try to create the flash would be very difficult, if the figures and atmosphere in your dio is correct to viewer will get the impression they are firing.

As for the guns in films these are special purpose built weapons for the film industry. Automatic weapons need a BFA (blank firing attachment) these are usually bolted on the end of the weapon to block the gas flow and force it to recock the weapon.
They are rigged to show an increased amount of muzzle flash for effect.
My personal opinion is to leave the flash and ensure the dio sets the mood.
Robbo

I have always noticed the dust raised around the muzzle more than the flash or smoke. The shock wave from the muzzle tends to raise a kind of cloud of dust around the end of the rifle. In a spot where many rounds have been fired, the area just under and in front of the weapon will often be stripped of vegetation and even the finer dust in the soil, leaving a bare kind-of gravelly patch. If you watch the combat footage from recent wars, and even the "Really Neato Tanks, etc." shows on History or Discovery channels, you will see that the most common and visible effect of firing a weapon is the dust, not a ball of flame or a stream of fire. .

How you replicate the faint dust cloud, I have no idea! I would be fascinated to find out a workable solution. Another neat effect would be to duplicate a stream of tracers from a machine gun (in real life, a chain of bright dots flying away from you). Good luck to you creative minds out there!

What about using an led light at the end That might look cool
Branden

The rifle if it's Russian is probably an RUSSIAN SVT40.



During daylight muzzle flash from small arms in not really noticeable. Night is another story.

Flash hinders were to reduce the effects of flash on the gunner. These were also used on night fighter aircraft.

Flash suppressors reduce or eliminate flash.

Do a google search for "muzzle flash" and check the pictures. The flash only last a few milli seconds. You'll also see that most of the photos are of pistols in low light or in doors.

Thanks everyone for the ideas and comments. I don't know what I'll do yet, I'll just see how everything else evolves.

Matt

It seems that anytime I respond to a question, I always refer to Shepard Paine's How To Build Dioramas. Anyway there are pictures of a diorama in which he used grain of wheat bulbs to reproduce muzzle flashes.

Patrick

Really? That would be interesting to see. Are there any pictures of that online somewhere? Is it 1/35? I'll have to look around for his pictures, I don't have the book


Matt