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Correct OD color for WW2
pfc
#333
Joined: October 13, 2002
KitMaker: 1,017 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 01:27 PM UTC
Which brand of paint would be the most accurate out of the bottle for the lighter OD of WW2 era. Say for the CCKW 6X6.
husky1943
Joined: March 17, 2004
KitMaker: 1,305 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 01:38 PM UTC
Ciao pfc,
I would suggest that you go to the Testors webpage and look into the Model Master paints (either enamel or acrylic). They are great to work with and reasonably priced.
I would suggest that you go to the Testors webpage and look into the Model Master paints (either enamel or acrylic). They are great to work with and reasonably priced.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 01:42 PM UTC
Nooooo!!!! Not the "Which is the most accurate shade of OD Green?" debate again.
There is no correct or most accurate shade. OD varied from manufactureer to manufacturer and from batch to batch. Weather and the environment also changed the shade or hue of the paint as well.
Any of the different ones out there will do. Best bet is to pick one you like in the paint brand you prefer.
Testor MM works for me.
There is no correct or most accurate shade. OD varied from manufactureer to manufacturer and from batch to batch. Weather and the environment also changed the shade or hue of the paint as well.
Any of the different ones out there will do. Best bet is to pick one you like in the paint brand you prefer.
Testor MM works for me.
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 03:39 PM UTC
Certainly not to argue w/my buddy Gino but Steve Zaloga attempted to answer this question in a MilMod article a few years back. His conclusion was that Tamiya Acylic OD was the closest hue.
Hey, to me his OD colors look great. Tamiya Acrylics are easy for me to find too. I find them easy to airbrush, too.
He just cuts his OD with Tamiya Dark yellow (the german camo color).
Hey, to me his OD colors look great. Tamiya Acrylics are easy for me to find too. I find them easy to airbrush, too.
He just cuts his OD with Tamiya Dark yellow (the german camo color).
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 05:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
...Steve Zaloga attempted to answer this question in a MilMod article a few years back. His conclusion was that Tamiya Acylic OD was the closest hue....He just cuts his OD with Tamiya Dark yellow (the german camo color).
No offense taken. The problem I have with the Zaloga article is that if the Tamiya color is the best, why cut it with dark yellow? You are now changing the color. It is no longer the Tamiya OD color.
My point, no exact, best color. Pick one and go with it.
HONEYCUT
Joined: May 07, 2003
KitMaker: 4,002 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 06:00 PM UTC
I think Testors reckoned their OD was the most accurate for a "Just outta the showroom " finish. This is not as dark as Tamiya OD but as Gino harked, there is no one true OD. Best to USe one as a base and lighten as needed?
Brad
Brad
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 06:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
No offense taken. The problem I have with the Zaloga article is that if the Tamiya color is the best, why cut it with dark yellow? You are now changing the color. It is no longer the Tamiya OD color.
True enough, but if you take the Tamiya colour out of the bottle and put it right against a new old stock WW II OD part, they look pretty much dead on. The yellow is to account for the effects of atmosphere, light and scale.
Quoted Text
My point, no exact, best color. Pick one and go with it.
Also true enough, but if there is a colour that is closest to the original, why not start there and then make the modifications needed for scale, wear, lighting, etc.? As has been said before, colours will vary infinitely, but in a "normal" distribution away from the nominal colour. The further you are away from the nominal colour, the less likely will be the chance that anything was painted that colour and also the harder it will be to achieve the shade you are looking for, no matter what that is.
And this is just for discussion's sake, of course. Everyone is free to try to achieve the colours they want whichever way they want. It's only a hobby, after all. :-)
Paul
shado67
Joined: October 16, 2003
KitMaker: 220 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 06:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
No offense taken. The problem I have with the Zaloga article is that if the Tamiya color is the best, why cut it with dark yellow? You are now changing the color. It is no longer the Tamiya OD color.
My point, no exact, best color. Pick one and go with it.
Amen Brother!! Use what looks best. Paint would vary from vehicle to vehicle - especially ones painted in the field.
I use Testors MM (supposed to be based on actual specifications) and I use Humbrol 155 or 66, depending on the shading I want before weathering. Xtracolor is another one supposedly formulated on the actual specification, but I just think Humbrol looks best.....you know, when you want to compare it to the B&W reference photos......
By the way the color hue changes the instant you start to weather it.
Lots of reason I wont "mix" the perfect shade, but mainly becuase there are LOTS of OD shades out there that are "supposed to be accuarate".
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shado67
Joined: October 16, 2003
KitMaker: 220 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 06:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
True enough, but if you take the Tamiya colour out of the bottle and put it right against a new old stock WW II OD part, they look pretty much dead on. The yellow is to account for the effects of atmosphere, light and scale.
My problem with the Zaloga article......why is he right....several brands claim to be accurate based on original specs and authentic color chips. Tamiya's OD has been around many years and to my knowledge not based on accuarate references (unless you know otherwise).
If you build Tamiya kits you see that they call for XF-61 dark green to be used on everything from a russian T-55 or JS-III to a british Cromwell or chieftan. Yet it is neither Russian green nor British Khaki Drab, nor Nato Green.....so I dont take much stock in Tamiya color shade accuracy - especially their older colors.
If they come out with a jar of OD with an ANA or FS# on it that matches the "original" OD spec, I will believe it. But like I said earlier, my favorite OD sahed is Humbrol and as far as I know its not FS# or ANA either.
nicoropi
Joined: September 29, 2005
KitMaker: 243 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 06:57 PM UTC
Since Humbrol was mentioned we should warn Keenan that there are 2 Humbrol OD, 66 and 155, and that 155 is the one that looks green.
I'm surprised you're using the 66 at all... Is this one not blue and miles away from the Allied OD?
I'm surprised you're using the 66 at all... Is this one not blue and miles away from the Allied OD?
MrRoo
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 3,856 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 08:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm surprised you're using the 66 at all... Is this one not blue and miles away from the Allied OD?
As I have done a few US softskins of WW2 period (including 8 or so GMC-CCKW's) and they are ALL painted with Humbrol OD #66 and NONE of you have ever questioned it on seeing the photos I really can't understand what the debate is about yet again.
Mate use the color you like and no one can tell you that you are wrong as even original WW2 spare parts are painted in different OD's depending on which batch of paint they were painted with.
cheers
Cliff
shado67
Joined: October 16, 2003
KitMaker: 220 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 21, 2005 - 08:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm surprised you're using the 66 at all... Is this one not blue and miles away from the Allied OD?
I sometimes use it as a dark base and shade over it with 155.
66 actually is more dark green with a hint of OD.
somtimes I start with a base of black, then overspray with 66 and overpray the middle and high areas with 155.
But you are correct, 155 is what looks clsoest to allied OD. And I love to work with humbrols.
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 06:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
My problem with the Zaloga article......why is he right....
Well, I don't _know_ he is right, but he seems to have coverd the bases for me, i.e. he found some new old stock OD parts (which all seemed to be pretty close in colour, even avter these years) and then matched dried samples of the colours to the NOS items. A lack of references or specs aside, that seems a pretty good way to determine which matches the old items.
Quoted Text
Tamiya's OD has been around many years and to my knowledge not based on accuarate references (unless you know otherwise).
Well, they don't advertise that they meet any particular specification, which is not the same as saying they were not based on any spec.s at all.
Quoted Text
nor British Khaki Drab
There is no such thing as Khaki Drab, so I'm not suprised it doesn't match that. :-)
Quoted Text
so I dont take much stock in Tamiya color shade accuracy - especially their older colors.
I'm not stating that all Tamiya colours are what they purport to be. Many are off, for sure. But it appears that they got this one right.
Quoted Text
If they come out with a jar of OD with an ANA or FS# on it that matches the "original" OD spec, I will believe it.
In this case, if they put an ANA or an FS# on a WW II vehicle colour, I specifically wouldn't believe it as the ANA OD is an aircraft colour and very different than vehicle OD and the FS system didn't exist in WW II.
Quoted Text
But like I said earlier, my favorite OD sahed is Humbrol and as far as I know its not FS# or ANA either.
So the lack of a colour being to a spec isn't an issue, it's more what you believe does the trick for you that is important, and that's fine. But it doesn't mean the Tamiya OD can't actually _be_ the right colour, does it? :-)
You know, these sorts of philosophical discussions really need to be held over a beer...
Paul
shado67
Joined: October 16, 2003
KitMaker: 220 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 06:36 PM UTC
Well....like the point of my original responses, go with what you think looks best. Get a jar of MM olive drab, humbrol 155, Xtra Color olive drab, tamiya olive drab, any others that might be out there, and paint a sample piece of plastic of each - compare - and go with the one you like. Hopefully you wont have to mix or cut one down with another color for that "exact and perfect" shade since there are so many out there. And, once you decide on the best shade, you can compare it to your black and white reference photos for accuaracy.
Well that particular color is at least 25 years old and I would trust a more recent release as being "accuarate". And once again I will ask what someone else already asked - if it is the best, why does it have to be mixed wth another color?
Quoted Text
I'm not stating that all Tamiya colours are what they purport to be. Many are off, for sure. But it appears that they got this one right.
Well that particular color is at least 25 years old and I would trust a more recent release as being "accuarate". And once again I will ask what someone else already asked - if it is the best, why does it have to be mixed wth another color?
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 06:44 PM UTC
I don't think I use the same OD ever. I use the Model Master Olive Drab, Green Drab, and Medium Green. I mix and match. Use Lighter shades for WW2 and darker for the modern era (until 1977)
Delbert
#073
Joined: October 05, 2002
KitMaker: 2,659 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:26 AM UTC
*picking up a good stick to beat the dead horse with.*..
none are correct....
all are correct...........
use what you like... it keeps things interesting.. if every od was exactly alike we'd all get bored with the green stuff........
none are correct....
all are correct...........
use what you like... it keeps things interesting.. if every od was exactly alike we'd all get bored with the green stuff........
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
Armorama: 3,947 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 06:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
And once again I will ask what someone else already asked - if it is the best, why does it have to be mixed wth another color?
Why cut the Steve Zaloga suggested Tamiya OD? Well our eyes perceive depth and highlight differently on a 1/35 model. While you could just spray it with a can completely OD (even the MOST ACCURATE one, whichever you choos), would it "look" right to your eye? No, it would look dull, lifeless and toylike -- as if it belonged on the Toys R Us shelf behind clear packaging.
Our minds perceive variations in tone, depth, texture, light and shadow. We process this input and guage motion, distance, etc.
Look at figure builders. They paint shadows, "grey" highlights -- a whole myriad of tricks to render realistic looking figures. 1/35 builders do the same (frankly, every scale requires its own rules and ratios). It used to be the harsh dark wash and light drybrush method. Nowadays, different philosophies have entered into our craft (filters, pigments, oils, chips, etc.) that have raised the bar on realistic finishes.
Zaloga cuts his OD with german dark yellow to impart scale effect and also to add tonal variation amd streaks amongst the various vehicle surfaces. This "painted on" weathering tricks our minds which are used to atmospheric haze, dirt and awkward shadows, into believing that the model is "realistic". Given digital photography and the web, another strata is even attained.
In the end, what looks "good" to you? I like the look of Zaloga and several others' models. I'm mimicking them first!
HTH
RC
BM2
#151
Joined: November 19, 2005
KitMaker: 1,361 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 06:57 AM UTC
There is no "correct" OD for ww2 it was field applied usually and faded fast!
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 08:28 AM UTC
John:
To say there wasn't a standard OD color for US WW2 produced equipment is just not true.
Now I can perhaps agree with you that some batches may not have held their color as well but there was definitely a government imposed standard. Collectors and re-enactors can attest to that. WHen they come across pristine equipment (un handled, in the box) I've routinely heard said that the OD is all the same hue.
And when you say "field applied" you can't mean that the equipment was painted haphazardly by lower level units, do you? All equipment left the factory ready to go. Field units did have painting equipment for needs but all equipment was accepted by the government painted their requisite colors.
Fading: I'd say given their relative newness, this was marginal. You look at M3s and M4s in the desert and what you see is DUST. This is a larger factor for us modellers than what we might guess is the amount of fading due to sun. These dust covered tanks loose any semblance of OD , except for the edges where the crew handled them. (that's why nicely weathered vehicles always hold my attention!!).
Roy
To say there wasn't a standard OD color for US WW2 produced equipment is just not true.
Now I can perhaps agree with you that some batches may not have held their color as well but there was definitely a government imposed standard. Collectors and re-enactors can attest to that. WHen they come across pristine equipment (un handled, in the box) I've routinely heard said that the OD is all the same hue.
And when you say "field applied" you can't mean that the equipment was painted haphazardly by lower level units, do you? All equipment left the factory ready to go. Field units did have painting equipment for needs but all equipment was accepted by the government painted their requisite colors.
Fading: I'd say given their relative newness, this was marginal. You look at M3s and M4s in the desert and what you see is DUST. This is a larger factor for us modellers than what we might guess is the amount of fading due to sun. These dust covered tanks loose any semblance of OD , except for the edges where the crew handled them. (that's why nicely weathered vehicles always hold my attention!!).
Roy
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