Now that I have your attention.....

In recent years it has come to light that the practice of blackening muzzle brakes has been wrong.

Can anyone tell me why has the blackened deck of the tiger has not been debunked.

Did the german mechanics run the engine that rich?

It takes awhile for the area around the exhaust stack of a prime mover and on the roof of the trailer to get that black, as these areas don't see the traffic that the rear deck of a tiger would see, with crew movement and mechanics in the engine bay every other day.... and so on.

Oil soot wipes of very easily at first. Once it's there it's hard to move but I don't believe it would be there long enough........

Your thoughts gentlemen.......

Gaz

hmm I put my answer over in the diorama section...interesting question though..

Rick

I think the trump card answer is an answer I got to one of my questions. As long as you, the builder, are satisfied with the overall result then that is all that is important.

I understand the desire to build a kit as authentic as possible, but to much over thinking can take the joy out of the hobby. I stopped building for a long time because after entering a few competitions and winning a few awards I held myself to a standard that took the joy out of the hobby. I felt that every kit I built had to be a first place kit. I still find myself holding back on kits because I see some others work and think that mine wouldn't hold a candle to that build.

Anyways I think that as long as you are happy with the overall finish whether it beat the clean look or the beat up look then that is what's important. Just my two cents.

My opinion on the blackened exhaust question is that there is no right or wrong. I assume that German tank engines had some sort of choke system to start the engine when it was cold. Depending on how long the choke was left on would make a big difference on the amount of blackening. The soot also would build up after a period of time even if the engine was in a perfect state of tune when it was running at operating temperature. Choke systems have a big effect on the blackening. I am posting a quick pic (hope itsa not a red x) of my rear Harley exhaust bracket. Notice the soot build up on it--this is buildup after about 500 miles. The bracket color is gloss black--notice the discoloration of the muffler bracket and the two bolts that hold the bracket to the muffler. The two bolts are chrome and they are completely black in the photo. Anyway just my opinion.

I agree that sometimes this "exhaust effect can be overdone, but live and let live......

All I know is from my own personal experience being a tank crewman. Granted, the M60 was a deisel, but I am sure other members can attest to the fact that black "soot" as you call it, was always present around the exhaust area, sometimes migrating to the back deck (depending on what shape your injectors were in). If you look at the rear grill door fins of 48's or 60's that have been in service for a while, I think you will see what I mean.

The M88, which in those days was a gas model, could blow a black cloud the size of Montana out of the stacks when just the magnetos were flicked on/off really quick. The exhaust on the M88 would be cherry red at night, and the metal shrouds would show blackening and oxidization due to the immense heat sustained back there, so....

IMHO, for German armor, I think it all really relates to the quality of the fuel and how the exhausts were positioned. Remember, the Tiger 1 exhaust was changed on the Tiger 2 because it facilitated sucking exhaust gases into the engine intakes, drawing the gases and soot towards the engine compt.....

Regards,

Steve

Hi Gary,

It's called artistic licence, simple as that, this is a hobby, and as most hobbies, you do it for the enjoyment. If you want to paint your Tiger pink with purple pokadots, by all means knock yourself out.
I tend to do all the wrong things when it comes down to it. I blacken my barrel ends I darken my exhausts, my grills, I'm fully aware that half the stuff I do is over the top, but I like it! It's how I choose to model.

The point I'm trying to get across, is that people do it for differing reasons, and we as fellow modellers should look at a finished model and be able to put aside our personal biases and see it for what it is, a model..... a model that someone has poured a lot of time and effort into for his or her pleasure. That does not mean that we as modellers are ignorant to what is 'realism' , most of us are quite knowledgeable and have plenty of reference on the subject at hand.

By the way,.... I've worked around tracked drill rigs for over 15 years, I work in isolated northern regions in Canada, I'm constantly setting up my office in the cab of a Bombardier or a Nodwell tracked drill, often in a foot of peat or mud, or in 4 feet of snow! These drills tend to be from brand new all the way to 40 year old workhorses. It gives me a constant reminder on how well run and maintained tracked vehicles can look, and on the flipside, how messy they tend to get over a short period of time, if maintenance is overlooked. These rigs are stained to high heaven in soot, grease, oil, hydraulic fluid, gas and diesel spills grimed by dirt and dust and mud,... it may not reflect the modern battlefield, but it does show what can be found in WW2 battlefields, where long arduous marches where punctuated in fierce firefights.

It's a good honest question Gary, I just wanted to give you the perspective of someone who knowingly breaks the modelling rules.

Frank

being an old time tanker. go a week in the field with no wash rack and you get a soot buildup from exhaust no so much on the deck but the grill doors (M60 series) Same thing would show near and on exhaust pipes of WW2 German and Russian

I agree to some extent about artistic license as none of us were there to see just how it was. I believe more in finding out what was common, uncommon, a myth and so on. For me, now, it would be embarassing to do a model of something and to do it incorrectly (not accurately). That said, do whatever makes you happy. What makes *me* happy is doing it accurately, proper paint scheme, colors etc.

As a kid, I blackened my muzzles because that seemed logical and I had seen it done on so many AFV's that I presumed it to be a fact. As of right now, I cant tell you if they should be blackened or not. Im assuming "Not" based on what Im reading here in this thread :-)

But getting back to the artistic license thing for a second... I have no problem with practically anything Ive ever seen in a dio or on a vehicle as you can suspend reality for the sake of the piece. Each one is an artwork in and of itself and it was interpreted as such by its maker. Maybe that truck went through some really light colored soil. Maybe that rear deck on that Tiger is covered in sooty material because they just blew a ring or the fuel was too rich this last time. Heck, my imagination can "see" practically any situation. Thats the fun part of this IMO.

Ah... once again learn some more! Thanks Gary for posting this topic.

Ya know, the more I understand about the nature of the physics in painting armor, the more it seems blend. I guess the challenge is to find a medium between realism and artistic license.

WC

I am in full agreement with the ex-tankies, Chieftain could certainly throw out the black stuff, even when well maintained and I am sure that those crews in action in WW2 certainly did not have the time to complete full maintainance under fire, plus particularly for the Germans, fuel quality and synthetics, probably gave rise to dirty engines.

John

I live in farm country so there are allot of tractors of varying ages here and they probably get a little less maintanence than a combat Tiger. That being said though judging by them and construction equipment all around my area I think their exhausts would be at least somewhat blackened. I believe though that its a mixture of soot, rust and burned metal. If you get a chance look at some construction equipment or for that matter the exhaust pipe on your car. The other factor is depending on the age of the vehicle and the quality of fuel and 1940's engine technology you should be able to guesstimate an approxiamate color.

Or you could just use artistic license and make it whatever you want.

Think that Benno hit the nail on the head here. Like to think this is how I would build...
Brad

Another M60 tanker here and I agree 100% with the soot on the rear grill doors. Open them puppies up and lean back against one and you have plenty 'o soot on your back.

My personal view on the 'artistic licence' thing is this: We are all obviously striving for realism in our modelling, if not we wouldn't bother with scale kits. We'd just as easily collect Dinky toys.

So I think when building, painting and weathering we should look at what's possible and probable. If something (soot blackening, for example) is possible but not probable, one should make a decision and go for it. On the other hand if something (like muzzle blackening) is impossible (due to modern ammo propellent) then one shouldn't.

I just have one more observation concerning the "black" muzzle breaks. I think it is important to note that "smokeless" propellents do leave residue and unburned powder. Secondly, as most tankers know, that when the tube is "punched" by the rammer staff and borebrush, coated with solvent, that a large gooey mass of sludge spits out the end of the tube.

On a main gun, with a muzzle break (German WW II AFV's, M48A3, etc) this sludge will stain the muzzle break and will blacken it over time. What some perceive as propellent "blackening" , as observed in photos of German AFV's of the WW II period, is more likely a result of what I have described above, IMHO.

Steve

When they first ran the Bovington Tiger, on Tank Day, there was an amazing amount of smoke and flame coming from the exhausts and the engine sounded like a bucketful of botls. I think that combined with what must have been low grade fuel, would cause a lot of smoke. I have also been told that the carburettors of the Tiger would go out of true very easily which would cause a lot of back fires from unburnt fuel.

I think all of the above would cause some sort of discolouring to the exhaust shields and such like.

Regards from the Swamp

Hawyeye

Hi All,
As to German exhausts, remember that the Germans made alot of their fuels from coal and oil shale (question: why aren't we doin that now?). The resulting fuel is oily (a by-product of the technology of the time) and sulphurous, so the comparasons to modern equipment is pretty close. These were gas engines that had exhaust like deisels. Also, another note: most WW2 afv's life expectancy on combat was less than 1 year, so they wouldn't get that grimy (some T-34's in 1942 didn't get to use up their first tank of gas in the combat zone). If anything, the muzzles of most afv's would be glossy. Why you ask? Because of the oil used after the barrel is cleaned with solvent. Again, these build-ups on the exhausts and muzzle are very much the result of artistic license. IMHO, keep these stains (and chipping) to a minimum and use dirt, dust and rain marks as the primary means of weathering. Just my 2 cents.
Regards,
Georg

could well be remeber the grade of fuels/oils back then aren't what we have now. also yo could find spanner monkys ect tampering with the main jets ect on the carbs due to weather (carbs run poorer in hot weather than in the cold something to do with moisture in the air) you also find problems with the carbs icing in cold weather. I could go out to my scooter and show brake dust on the hubs/wheel rims also due to the fact I run a tuned motor in it you can easily see were the unspent fuel/oil has been spat out by the carb on a Matt surface as as a tank it would dry and "look like soot" around the rear deck grills ect

Just to throw some history in the mix, the amount of dirt and grit that was sucked into the engines of German AFV's in Africa and Russia resulted in greater fuel consumption and oil usage.
The dirt would scar the rings and cylinder walls making the engine burn oil and waste fuel.
This is not an opinion, it is stated fact from several panzer books I have in my collection.
Even the fiefal air cleaners on the Tiger 1 could not keep out all the dirt.
Sometimes it's fun being a history nerd. I get more info from books with personal accounts than regular reference materials.
Keep on modelling!!!

Thanks for the responces,

But I think I'm actually more confussed.

OK we have:

1940's German fuel was low grade and would create smoke flumes on startup and backfires.

Inside the engine bay would be blackened - Thanks to all the ex-tankers.

Thanks Mr Ward, but the Harley looks a bit clean to me.

I'm actually talking about the practice that I've read about in MIS, TMMI, and VP book of giving a quick overspray on the rear deck and shrouds of a tiger.

Like I've done Here....


Can any of the extanker remember if the soot on the deck come off when you walked on it?

As to those reintroducing the Blackening muzzle breaks is OK again......AHHHHHHH.

I have the Tigers on the Eastern front and Western Front books by Historie & Collectors ( from memory )and alot of the tigers that look really beat up don't have blacken muzzles or rear decks.

It will take some time to truely answer this question.

As to Artistic Licence...... Competiton Judges just don't look postitivly at AL, They all seem to work on the "What was the last thing I read" principle!
So these days if you want to enter comps you have to have that model look like the judge must think "i'd better give a good grade before this thing shoots up the place" If you get my meaning.

Gaz

Tell them to b*gger off. That looks great to me.

Real life is subjective.

If, you're talking about a diesel, less soot would be produced when the engine is idling (diesels are more effiecent when they idle) compared to when the engine is running ideal rpm. If, you're talking about a gas engine, more soot is produced when the engine idles (gas engines are less efficient when idling) compared to the engine is under at rpm rpm
Ch

Well Gary, I don't know what sort of judging you have 'down under' but in my neck of the woods, we don't tolerate that. We have 5 to 7 local model shows in southern Ontario, and it's the same 200 to 300 modellers that provide the 400 to 500 models on display at the shows, year in, year out. Out of that group, there are possibly 30 to 40 of us that do the judging, we're a tight knit group, and have the utmost of respect for all the pieces displayed on the tables. We judge solely on quality of the build and quality of the finish. We do not quell a model due to artistic indiference nor do we judge on accuracy, no rivet counters allowed! (for obvious reasons).

I feel sorry for you, if that truly is the way shows are run there.

The problem with this in my experience is that if a diesel engine isn't brought up to operating temperatures, it will "push" oil out the exhausts. This happens often when a vehicle is in a motor pool situation and isn't run a hi idle till it hits its operating temps.

You can tell this happening by the sludge that is coming out of the exhaust. I've seen this often on Russian tanks and seen it first hand on the Bradley and MRLS engines I worked on in the Army.

You also can't compare engine tech from today from the 1940's either. There are some newer engines that are so clean that the exhaust they put out is cleaner then what they take in some metropolitan areas.