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Wittman/Villers Bocage
Relevance
Joined: September 16, 2005
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Posted: Monday, January 16, 2006 - 06:54 PM UTC
I have been looking across the net for info on the above as I am new to this era of history. I am finding a lot of conflicting information so can anyone please let me know what was the number of Wittman's tiger at Viller Bocage. So far I have found 231, 212, & 205.
Davester444
Joined: March 09, 2005
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Posted: Monday, January 16, 2006 - 06:58 PM UTC
The one he was in that was blown up (by a British dive bomber), resulting in the death of the entire crew, was number 007.
Dave
Dave
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Monday, January 16, 2006 - 07:13 PM UTC
Entire forests and their digital equivalent have been sacrificed on this very question 
If you read the ML thread I posted in response to an earlier question (repeated below) and the one in the link at the top of that thread, then you will know just as much (and be just as confused) as anyone else.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1097502160/That+pesky+KOed+Tiger+%26quot%3B212%26quot%3B%2C+allegedly+Wittmann%92s
In the end the ultimate proof hasn't been found yet, so you're free to make your own choice based on the available information.
Wittmann's demise is a little more certain, it was due to a Sherman VC of 1Northamptonshire Yeomanry.
If you read the ML thread I posted in response to an earlier question (repeated below) and the one in the link at the top of that thread, then you will know just as much (and be just as confused) as anyone else.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1097502160/That+pesky+KOed+Tiger+%26quot%3B212%26quot%3B%2C+allegedly+Wittmann%92s
In the end the ultimate proof hasn't been found yet, so you're free to make your own choice based on the available information.
Wittmann's demise is a little more certain, it was due to a Sherman VC of 1Northamptonshire Yeomanry.
Davester444
Joined: March 09, 2005
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Posted: Monday, January 16, 2006 - 07:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Wittmann's demise is a little more certain, it was due to a Sherman VC of 1Northamptonshire Yeomanry.
I disagree, I thought it was due to a bomb from a dive-bomber hitting the engine compartment, but we could argue for hours about it. Let's not.
Dave
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Monday, January 16, 2006 - 07:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
but we could argue for hours about it. Let's not.
Quite right - PM if you want a civilised discussion of course
Davester444
Joined: March 09, 2005
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Posted: Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:02 PM UTC
PM sent.
Dave
Dave
Tankleader
Joined: April 29, 2003
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Posted: Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I disagree, I thought it was due to a bomb from a dive-bomber hitting the engine compartment, but we could argue for hours about it. Let's not.
Dave
I agree and I love this arguement.
Tanks
Andy
Hawkeye
Joined: March 29, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:14 AM UTC
Not wanting to annoy anyone here, but i thought that Wittmann's deat hahd been ascertained and that it was a Sherman Firefly that finished his Tiger off. The dive bomber theory i thought had been de bagged as according to the research i have read, there were no ground support planes in the area. Also the pic of Wittmann's destroyed Tiger does not look to me like the engine deck has been hit. I am only summising here, but if a rocket, or bomb had penetrated the engine deck, would there not have been some serious damage to the sides as well? In the picture of the Tiger, where the turret is lying behind it, there appears to me to be next to no damage on the side we can see.
Dave, i would love to discuss this further, so if you want to PM me as well.
Regards from the Swamp
Hawkeye
Dave, i would love to discuss this further, so if you want to PM me as well.
Regards from the Swamp
Hawkeye
jpzr
Joined: July 01, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Not wanting to annoy anyone here, but i thought that Wittmann's deat hahd been ascertained and that it was a Sherman Firefly that finished his Tiger off. The dive bomber theory i thought had been de bagged as according to the research i have read, there were no ground support planes in the area. Also the pic of Wittmann's destroyed Tiger does not look to me like the engine deck has been hit. I am only summising here, but if a rocket, or bomb had penetrated the engine deck, would there not have been some serious damage to the sides as well? In the picture of the Tiger, where the turret is lying behind it, there appears to me to be next to no damage on the side we can see.
Dave, i would love to discuss this further, so if you want to PM me as well.
Regards from the Swamp
Hawkeye
I'm with you Hawkeye. IIRC, the last I saw on this echoes your take that there is zero documentation of fighter/bombers active in the area at the time of Wittman's death. Also IIRC, most of the fighter/bomber argument seems to come from the examination of the supposed wreck by a French farmer. I'm sure I'm oversimplifying here so clarification is welcome.
Conversely, Trooper Joe Ekins' tank was documented to be in the exact area at the precise time and his tank commander's AAR seems to corroborate the action.
Then again, what do I know? Well, I do know one thing: this is a controversy that seems never-ending.
Davester444
Joined: March 09, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:58 AM UTC
There are many theories about what happened, here are the ones I've found about what happened to Wittmans Tiger:
-Surrounded by Fireflys and shot to pieces.
-Destroyed by one or a small group of Fireflys from the flank at medium range.
-Typhoon hit the engine, blowing the tank up immediately.
-Defective ammunition was dropped or exploded when fired. Secondary explosions threw the turret off.
If anyone knows any other theories I'd be interested to hear them. Of course it is impossible to prove that any of these are correct, or to disprove them.
Dave
-Surrounded by Fireflys and shot to pieces.
-Destroyed by one or a small group of Fireflys from the flank at medium range.
-Typhoon hit the engine, blowing the tank up immediately.
-Defective ammunition was dropped or exploded when fired. Secondary explosions threw the turret off.
If anyone knows any other theories I'd be interested to hear them. Of course it is impossible to prove that any of these are correct, or to disprove them.
Dave
Salvo
Joined: August 14, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 01:09 AM UTC
I actually me Joe Ekins and talked with him. I am going to go with is story. I believe that on top of the dive bomber, which they say may have attacked the tank after the fact.
Keith Hill has a painting called Two Shots depicting Wittmans demise based off Ekins story.
Later,
Salvo
Keith Hill has a painting called Two Shots depicting Wittmans demise based off Ekins story.
Later,
Salvo
Marineman25
Joined: October 14, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 01:18 AM UTC
Come on guys, we can fight for days on Wittman's death, but first lets help this guy out.
This is a great site with everything you need, there's a lot more about wittman in there too so take a look.
http://www.panzerace.net/english/pz_boc.asp
For the actual town I would go with either 212or 231, If you want to do a before the battle thing then 205 would work.
*after looking at some more sites I've got conflicting info too. I believe that 222 on the site is really 212. sorry.
This is a great site with everything you need, there's a lot more about wittman in there too so take a look.
http://www.panzerace.net/english/pz_boc.asp
For the actual town I would go with either 212or 231, If you want to do a before the battle thing then 205 would work.
*after looking at some more sites I've got conflicting info too. I believe that 222 on the site is really 212. sorry.
Davester444
Joined: March 09, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 01:27 AM UTC
Oh yes, I forgot the main point of this thread.
Tigers commanded by Wittman himself:
205 (6th June)
212 (13th June)
231 (July)
007 (8th August)
Tigers in sPzAbt 101 (Late):
1. Kompanie: 104, 105, 111, 112, 113, 114, 121, 122, 123, 124.
2. Kompanie: 204, 205, 211, 212, 213, 214, 221, 222, 223, 224, 231, 232, 233, 234.
Late Command Tigers:
007, 008, 009.
EDIT: I found proof that there was Tiger 008 under Wittmans command.
Dave
Tigers commanded by Wittman himself:
205 (6th June)
212 (13th June)
231 (July)
007 (8th August)
Tigers in sPzAbt 101 (Late):
1. Kompanie: 104, 105, 111, 112, 113, 114, 121, 122, 123, 124.
2. Kompanie: 204, 205, 211, 212, 213, 214, 221, 222, 223, 224, 231, 232, 233, 234.
Late Command Tigers:
007, 008, 009.
EDIT: I found proof that there was Tiger 008 under Wittmans command.
Dave
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 01:32 AM UTC
Guys, Steve was actually asking about Villers Bocage, not Wittmanns death. This link may shed some light, or just confuse more.
http://www.panzerace.net/mai/ritterkz.asp
Briefly, 205 was his original vehicle as CO of 2/SSPzAbt101, this appears to have suffered some sort of mechanical breakdown, so @ VB, he used one of the "troop horses" available due to the abscence of its normal commander - the general consensus is that it was 212, although the suggestion has been made it may have been 222. 231 was the vehicle in which he was photographed after the award of the oakleaves (or was it swords?) for VB, so almost certainly wasn't the vehicle he used in the battle. The tank in which he met his death, 007, was a battalion command tank which he received as temporary CO in August.
The Dragon kit box clearly shows 212 on the top, & is obviously intended to be Wittmanns vehicle. If it's good enough for Mr Volstad, it's good enough for me.
http://www.panzerace.net/mai/ritterkz.asp
Briefly, 205 was his original vehicle as CO of 2/SSPzAbt101, this appears to have suffered some sort of mechanical breakdown, so @ VB, he used one of the "troop horses" available due to the abscence of its normal commander - the general consensus is that it was 212, although the suggestion has been made it may have been 222. 231 was the vehicle in which he was photographed after the award of the oakleaves (or was it swords?) for VB, so almost certainly wasn't the vehicle he used in the battle. The tank in which he met his death, 007, was a battalion command tank which he received as temporary CO in August.
The Dragon kit box clearly shows 212 on the top, & is obviously intended to be Wittmanns vehicle. If it's good enough for Mr Volstad, it's good enough for me.
Davester444
Joined: March 09, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 01:35 AM UTC
It's all to easy to get carried away discussing how Wittman met his end. Anyway, Steve, I hope we helped eventually.
Dave
Dave
Kelley
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Posted: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 01:54 AM UTC
After much reading of different material, on the web and in books and magazines, personally I believe Wittman's Tiger 007 was KO'd by a Firefly, but that's me.
To answer the original question, Steve, current consensus is that Wittman was in either Tiger 212, or 222 at Villers-Bocage. I won't go into the whole story, (I would need at least a day or two ) but after reading many discussions on the web, and discriptions in books, and then studying the available photo evidence, again, personally I'm in the "camp" who believe that it was 212. In the end I think you would be safe with either one.
My .02 cents,
Mike
To answer the original question, Steve, current consensus is that Wittman was in either Tiger 212, or 222 at Villers-Bocage. I won't go into the whole story, (I would need at least a day or two
) but after reading many discussions on the web, and discriptions in books, and then studying the available photo evidence, again, personally I'm in the "camp" who believe that it was 212. In the end I think you would be safe with either one.My .02 cents,
Mike
Relevance
Joined: September 16, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 03:41 AM UTC
Many thanks guys for your support and help. I didn't realise that this subject has so many angles and would be so provocative. I think I will go with 212. Thanks again. Steve
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 04:42 PM UTC
The article on Wittmann's last battle is in After the Battle 48
http://www.afterthebattle.com/ab-con1.html#index
Wonder where my copy is?
http://www.afterthebattle.com/ab-con1.html#index
Wonder where my copy is?
bucko
Joined: January 15, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 06:25 AM UTC
I have to go with the death by dive bomber. I read the book Tiger Ace by Gary Simpson a long time ago,and from reeding things here and there it always seems to say it was a dive bomber.
Kelley
Joined: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 08:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
have to go with the death by dive bomber. I read the book Tiger Ace by Gary Simpson a long time ago,and from reeding things here and there it always seems to say it was a dive bomber.
Kevin, the key words in your statement are, "a long time ago".
"Tiger Ace" was published at least 10 years or so back. New evidence has come to light since then, which for me at least puts the "death from above" theory into serious doubt.Cheers,
Mike
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 01:09 PM UTC
While we're at it guys, lets stir up the Shermans vs Tiger dispute as well :-) :-) :-)
I'm going to vote for the USS New York firing a 14" shell blowing up Wittman's tank
I'm going to vote for the USS New York firing a 14" shell blowing up Wittman's tank
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 01:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I read the book Tiger Ace by Gary Simpson
You should read some of the things that have been said about Gary Simpson, apparently the book owes more to his imagination than to history.
darreng
Joined: January 21, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:08 PM UTC
Wittmann's Tiger 007 was knocked out by a Sherman Firefly on August 8 1944!
keenan
Joined: October 16, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm going to vote for the USS New York firing a 14" shell blowing up Wittman's tank
I don't care who you are, that's funny.
Thanks for the chuckle Steve.
Shaun
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:38 PM UTC
I thought he was taken out by a second tank positioned on a grassy knoll.
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