I am having a problem trying to find some information on the 12th SS panzer div. Hitler Youth Battalion insignia on the Panzer IV H/J's. Did they have them on their tanks like the tigers do? If so, where would they be?

Hi Jody,

I am no expert but have read a number of books and done quite a bit of research on these guys and as far as I am aware there was no Battalion insignia only their Divisional one and turret numbers.

On the 6th of June 1944 there were 2 battalions in the 12th SS Panzer Regiment, the first battalion with the first 4 companies of the regiment made up of Panthers making a total of 79 tanks and a repair company and the second battlion with the last 5 companies of the regiment made up of Panzer lVs with atotal of 96 tanks plus a repair company.

You could generally tell what battalion, company and platoon a vehicle was from by its turret numbers, eg number 214 would have been in the 2nd company, 1st platoon, 4th vehicle and being in the 2nd company this put it in the 1st battalion where as number 621 would have been in the 2nd battalion as they had 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th companies.

Hope this helps and I am sure you will get some more info from others more versed than me.

No expert either but I believe Neil is correct.

12th SS Panzer IV with divisional badge on track guard

http://www.saak.nl/panzersinnormandy/panzer12.jpg

From here, with more pictures:

http://www.saak.nl/panzersinnormandy/

Note that the Hitler Youth may have modified the system of numbers mentioned by Russ as they seem to have tanks with the last figure of the tac number as 5, 6 and 7. This may be because they avoided the use of 1 as too much of a giveaway of command tanks.

Wow David, some great pictures there, I particularly liked the shot of Stugs from "Hohenstaufen". I'm confused by the "9th company" HJ tanks. Surely the 9th company, if it existed, was the workshop company, so didn't have any tanks? Is this just misleading markings to confuse the enemy, like the 837 etc? HJ seem to have been quite scrupulous about marking up their tanks with div insignia. They usually appear on the front & rear of their PzIVs, but in common with other units they don't seem to have bothered with Panthers!

Interesting question about the 9th company. This site suggests there was a 9th company

http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/Org.html

but has a link to another site giving an orbat with the standard 8

http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/gerob/pzdiv/12sspzdiv.html

Interesting to see an Ausf C at that time. Well battered also ( note missing front right portion of mud guard).
And still in Panzergrau by the looks of it.

Cheers
Henk

Great site David, totally forgot about the use of numbers 5, 6 and 7, thanks.

The turret numbers in the photos in the Panzers in Normandy link suggest that II/SSPzRgt12 organised its Panzers IVs into 5 companies of 17 tanks each, as in the first orbat given.

It's possible that 9th company numbers were used to disguise HQ tanks (I'm thinking of pictures from Kursk here), so I'm open to correction

Sorry, I don't see the significance of this. HJs two Panzergrenadier Regiments were numbered 25 & 26, this doesn't affect how many companies there are in the Panzerregiment. It's interesting that HJ had both a Panzerjagerabteilung & a Werferabteilung. Hohenstaufen was supposed to have a Panzerjager unit also, but it seems to have existed only from time to time. There doesn't ever seem to have been a Werfer unit. The Stugs that were originally alloted, which are shown in early organisation charts as "Stug Abt 9", presumably went to equip companies 7 & 8 of the Panzer Regiment, which were so equipped at Tarnopol & in Normandy, when the Panzerjager unit was broken up to reinforce 16th Reichsfuhrer SS division. SS Panzerjagerabteilung 9 reappeared just before Market Garden with PzJgr IVs, & was decimated near Cambrai.
The SS Panzer divisions were originally organised as Panzergrenadier divisions, so they had a higher infantry complement than Heer units, ie 3 battalions in each infantry regiment, rather than 2.
This implies that HJ was in fact exceptionally well equipped, if it had 9 panzer companies as well as Stugs or Jagdpanzers & werfers as well.

Further to what I wrote above, since the SS Panzer divs were originally Panzergrenadire units they would only have been entitled to a Stug Abteilung (and they all seem to have got the Stugs before tanks), but since they were all Panzer divs in everything but name quite early on it was logical to call them all so in 1943. However the result was that they all had differing non-standard organisations, the big expansion of the Waffen SS in 1943, with units or personnel being transferred from one division to the other only exacerbated this. Quite why 12SS chose to organise it's Panzerregiment in 9 companies of 17 rather than 8 of 22 is known only to them. It is possible that the 9 is a security measure to disguise command tanks, there are numerous instances of this. The OC of 9th SS Panzerregiment used a tank coded K09 @ Tarnopol - obviously Kommandeur regiment 9-hardly good security!

I cheated, I've got the Hohenstaufen unit history! It has a vehicle by vehicle organisation chart. Actually I think I was wrong about Cambrai, it was the Flak unit that got the chop there. The Panzerjager Abteilung lost most of it's vehicles in the run up to Market Garden fighting containment battles around "Joe's Bridge".