This a question for the British armor guy's. I have studied all the WWII pics I can find of the Firefly, and have found 3 pictures that show Firefly's with the small cast drivers hoods, but are not M4A4's. One tank is obviously an early M4, Sherman I, the other 2 are not clear as to the engine type. None of the three are Composite hull, or Hybrids.

So, I was told some years ago that all Firefly tanks were based on either the M4A4, Sherman V or the M4, Sherman II. Is this true, or could there be an odd M4A2, Sherman III in the mix?

Are there production numbers? My source for info from the UK was through a friend who has retired and lost track of him. Any links to British Shermans would be appriciated.

Hi Randall,

I'm no expert, but to my best knowledge, all Firefly's where based on either the M4 (Sherman Ic) or the M4A4 (Sherman Vc)...

Frank

Hi there,

Here is a link to a model made by Bret Green:

http://www.kitparade.com/features00/fireflbg.html

and here is a link to the Sherman Register:

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/gbdesig.htm

Just copy and paste them in. Hope this helps.

Alan

Some more sites to visit www.battletanks.com (photos) and www.mising-lynx.com (models)

Later: another useful site with some models and good reference pictures:

http://tanxheaven.com/index.htm

It's pretty much accepted that Fireflies were based on the M4 - Sherman Ic (easy conversion using the Tamiya kit), M4 Composite - Sherman Ic Hybrid (waiting for DML to rerelease it), and the M4A4 Sherman Vc (DML kit).

A handful of M4A3 were converted for trials.

Source: The Sherman Firefly by Mark Hayward

Alan,
Thanks for the links. The registery will be a big help. One had to wonder if a useable turret was placed on a useable hull, but I can stick to the known form.

I am also waiting for the latest Dragon Firefly, there are supposed to be some improvements.

If only the block heads in the U.S. War Department had adopted the 17pdr when it was offered in 1943!

BTW, the sample Firefly turret on display at Aberdeen was put on a very early M4A2 for testing. Probably the only one ever made.

Hi Randall,

Your welcome.

I build the Firefly VC and really enjoyed the build. Could do with some more internal turret detail. The tracks are a challange (ha ha).

Yep, the 17pdr was probably the best heavy weapon the Allies had at that time.

I imagine that there would have been a lot of make do type trial tanks using whatever was at hand, just to see if it worked.

I've only recently become interested in British Shermans as it's had to get a kit without spending a fortune on conversion sets.

I've been on to Dragon for months to issue their Shermans as a 2 in 1 or 3 in 1 kits with a British version included. Who knows!!!

Then again I've sent them lists of possible British Figures and vehicles to fill the gap in the plastic injection market. I'll be really pleased if they do some more British Infantry, Vickers MGs and 3" Mtr Teams - One lives in hope even if it is only a dream!!!

Enjoy the build when it comes.

Al

I agree AlanL

I too recently finished DML's Firefly , and apart from a few vauge references in the instructions and of course those tracks , it was a nice enjoyable build.

Unless you want a Firefly your limited to building any other British Sherman unless you buy the Formations conversion kit , which is a shame , i would love to build a dio with a Firefly and a standard Sherman.

Ian

Ian,

Only suggestion I can make is Tamiya M4 Early Production with Accurate Armour Conversion (£8.50).

This will give you a Sherman Mk 1 at a reasonable price.

I'm almost finished building a troop of 2 Mk 1's and a Firefly of 2nd Gds Armd - just decals and crew to sort/souurce.

Al

PS: Those are some nice looking kits you have build.

Wow thanks Alanl

I didnt realise Accuarate Armour did that set , and as you say at a very reasonable price , thanks


Ian

My interst in British armor started with an old copy of Desert Rats At War, back in the early '80's. A Godsend was the French book Normandie Album Memorial a book that I found in the late '80's. I started making my own conversions, including a (Firefly during my Tank Workshop days). Still, it was difficult to get good information about British tank units until the advent of the internet. By then I was very burned out, and have done very little over the last few years. I am slowly getting my modeling legs again. I had all the Dragon M4's, because I never stopped buying kits. A friend conned me out of the first Sherman 1c Hybrid I had.

I have always liked the Firefly's. I have all the drawing of the Imperial Museum prototype, and tried to get every book on the tank type available in the US. The IWM drawings now bring up a second question. In the drawings of the prototype the armored box for the radio had a rear plate wider that the box sides. One the turret at Aberdeen the box rear plate is narrower than the side plates. This box can be seen on the Sherman Vc on page 48 of Concords D-Day Tank Warefare.

So new question, is this a difference between early and late, or between protoype and production? The DML Sherman 5c has The IWM box, did these see combat? Thanks in advance.

The M4 is the Sherman I. The M4A1 is the Sherman II.

There was only one Sherman IIc built and it resides at Camp Borden, North of Toronto. It is a Grizzly (Canadian built M4A1) converted to Firefly standard. It has all the external features and I have been told by the Curator of the museum that it has all the proper features inside as well. Its history is not know, but it was probably a trials or protptype vehicle as Borden was the Armour School during the war and a lot of trial vehicles ended up there.

One could correctly call it a Grizzly Ic but apparently there are messages from Andy McNaughton (CGIC 1st Cdn Army) telling the beaurocrats in Ottawa to stop calling the Grizzly by the name Grizzly and to call it the Sherman II like everyone else. No notice seems to have been taken...



Not that anyone has ever seen.

HTH

Paul

Hi Randell,

My answer is I'm not sure. I'm no expert and would have to look into this. My best advice is to repost this particular question and you will probably get a faster response as it may have become lost in this thread.

There are certainely people on site who could answer this, so try a repost if you need a quick answer.

Al

Can you post the photos, or let us know where you found them? It would be nice to sort this perennial question out.

There were no Sherman III Fireflys as one of the critieria for conversion was that the tank had a petrol engine. Why this was necessary I have no idea.

Mark Hayward is the man when it comes to the Firefly

http://freespace.virgin.net/shermanic.firefly/home.htm

Thanks again for the information. I will be getting a copy of the Firefly book as soon as I can.

Try this search for MLU forum its a Canadian
group with alot of brits that hang around too.
There is alot of info in the group they can usally
find what you need.
Ponysoldier

The proper addy is www.MapleLeafUp.org