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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Track types on various Sherman kits.
sgirty
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Posted: Friday, March 03, 2006 - 09:34 PM UTC
HI, I was up to the local hobby store today and found myself coming out with the new Dragon "Operation Cobra" kit. (Just from the initial inspection it's a really nice kit by the way, and well worth the $30 I got it for.). Anyway I talked to a guy who was picking up his kit of the same thing and was aking him about some of the various "workable" tracks to put on it, esp. those from AFV Club, which my supplier can get at a pretty good buy.

He told me that it's not all that critcal as to what time of track style to put on any Sherman kit as long as it's the right length and fit over the drivers okay. Whether on frontwards or backwards wasn't that big of a deal or even if a person decided to put two completely different types on the same model, as he had seen a photos of this himself.

Anyway I was just wondering what others who are a lot more knowledgeable of Shermans than I think of this.

Thanks and take care, Larry
jimbrae
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Posted: Friday, March 03, 2006 - 09:50 PM UTC
First question is about workable racks. On a Sherman - why exactly? The tracks on a Sherman were (VERY) tight, why would anyone want a workable set? This must be the only AFV, where a good set of Vinyl tacks fits the bill perfectly...

It's not important as to what kind of tracks to put on an M4. Right, sure.

As to 'workable' tracks from AFV Club, the majority of replacements are vinyly, not the link 'n length type...

There are a few (very few) pics of Shermans with two different track types, however, although it (rarely) happened, it was however possible. What has to be considered is the look of a model with this combination. It's going to look messy...

This sounds like the typical 'LHS Expert' to me - or am I being horribly cynical? Jim
ChrisRidle
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Posted: Friday, March 03, 2006 - 09:54 PM UTC
My limited knowledge on this subject comes from the Squadron Books Sherman In Action and Sherman Walk Around. Sherman tracks show general trends, but there are exceptions. T51 track was simply rubber block and T48 track had a wide rubber chevron. Both of these styles were common from the beginning to the end of the war on US Shermans. T49 tracks had 2 sets of parallel bars or steel cleets that ran across the width of the track. These were more common on Export Shermans, but I have seen pics of US vehicles with these tracks. T54 track had steel chevrons. These were common on US vehicles from mid 44 until the end of the war. T49 and T54 tracks didn't require the all valuable rubber for its production.

Basically, a Mid 1944 could have had any of these different kind of tracks. However, T49 track "steel cleet" wouldn't be likely.
M4 Sherman Walk around book shows them all in great detail.
jimbrae
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Posted: Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:00 PM UTC
Chris, I think both of these books have become somewhat out-of-date with some of the more recently published material - as sources I frankly wouldn't use them..Jim
sgirty
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Posted: Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:06 PM UTC
Hi, I totally agree on the vinyl tracks for the Shermans, and it's a darn shame that some of the major kit makers do not offer the various types, or sets, that they have made in the past, or are currently making, as a seperate sellable items. I think this would be something of a God-sent for us builders as far as Shermans go.

While digging through some boxes out in the garage the other day I did find a set of the vinyl tracks I had saved from some kit in the past, so I do have that one set available. But this is just one set for 4 models that are currently sitting around gathering dust and cat hair. Ha, ha! So I'm just checking out the options if and when the day comes that I can ever get around to building them. Time, or spare time, seems to be the only REAL problem anymore.

Thanks for the imput and take care, Larry
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 12:38 AM UTC
Larry:
There is plenty of photographic evidence of mix-n-match and backwards tracks on Shermans. One suggestion, however, especially if you plan to enter a contest with wacky tracks -- back it up with a photo. The judges don't always have the same references as the builder and may think you were just sloppy. Also, there are lots of tracks sold separately. Academy has several sets and Dragon's tracks are widely available for trade or sale as they provide so many extras. Also, check out RHPS' offereings -- they have lots of nice ones.

Chris:
There's nothing wrong with those Squadron books. They are cheap, have lots of pics, and most of the details are correct. Yes, there are a few captions that might be questionable, but there are hardly any "perfect" reference books, no matter who publishes them. I have the Hunnicutt Sherman "bible," as well as many other more recent Sherman references and I still go back to my old, dog-eared copy of Squadron's Sherman in Action once in a while for a photo reference.

Having said that, I brace myself for the wrath of Rae.
ericadeane
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Posted: Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 12:48 AM UTC
I'll add my two cents here (which I'll need back in time for the AMPS Nats convention vendors' room!)

I'll agree that there were strange variations sometimes captured in photos. But that doesn't mean anomalies were widespread. Brad Main of Canada posted a query about mix-tracks on a Sherman IC. It had the T54 tracks on one side at T62 on the other -- talk about an oddball!

My take on it is: Sure they could have happened but why model something that is so out of the mainstream that I need to have picture of the real thing in a gilded frame standing beside it whenever other modellers are looking at it?

For a very interesting examination of track types, look at this report by K Laughlin on the 5th Army's usage of track types:

http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/Tracks/trackusagefiftharmy.html

It's very informative!
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 01:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'll agree that there were strange variations sometimes captured in photos. But that doesn't mean anomalies were widespread.



Quoted Text

My take on it is: Sure they could have happened but why model something that is so out of the mainstream that I need to have picture of the real thing in a gilded frame standing beside it whenever other modellers are looking at it?


I agree. But if I when I model a specific vehicle from a photo, I keep a copy of that photo handy. All anomalies are tricky things to model .... and I still suggest you have something to back it up, even if it's not in a gilded frame.

Hope to meet you next month at the AMPS Nats, Roy! I'll be there (for the first time) with the Kansas City AMPS contingent! And -- guess what? -- one of my models depicts an anomaly! (but it's not mix-n-match tracks)
jimbrae
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Posted: Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 04:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

One suggestion, however, especially if you plan to enter a contest with wacky tracks -- back it up with a photo. The judges don't always have the same references as the builder and may think you were just sloppy


Now THAT is an interesting suggestion... Personally I would tend to stay clear of it - sadly not everyone is capable of allowing their minds to grasp concepts like that

Bob:


Quoted Text

'The Wrath of Rae'
- at a Movie Theater Near YOU Soon... Now if my surname had been Khan, we could have been looking at a possible lawsuit...Jim :-) :-) :-)
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 05:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

'The Wrath of Rae'

Perhaps a good title for an interesting vignette in the future...... Never give senile old men with crazed senses of humor ideas....... :-)
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 11:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Chris, I think both of these books have become somewhat out-of-date with some of the more recently published material - as sources I frankly wouldn't use them..Jim

Hey Jim, as history hasn't changed, I assume you mean that there are recent releases that have more information from newly discovered resources?
jimbrae
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 02:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I assume you mean that there are recent releases that have more information from newly discovered resources?


Exactly that - also, other publishers are constantly bringing out new editions, sadly, Squadron aren't very good at updating/revising/expanding their existing titles. It's not they're bad, per se, I just believe that other publishers have brought out more concise material in last 10 years or so..Jim
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:14 PM UTC
Aside from the obvious Hunnicut option, what could be recommended for good reference? Seems Armorama is my best option at present
Drader
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:27 PM UTC
Apart from my prized copy of Hunnicutt , my favourite Sherman references are Steven Zaloga's books for Concord. There have been two on the Sherman at war, and there is more coverage in the US Tank Battles run in the Armor at war series. The Squadron Walkaround books on the M4 and tank destroyers are also useful, as long as you remember that preserved vehicles are not always completely representative of wartime originals. I've also got the In Action which is a good source of photos as long as you are suitably cautious about the captions.

I also have various Osprey and Tanks Illustrated among others. Might take a while to produce a full list.
jimbrae
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:30 PM UTC
For 'Walkround' type material, The Polish company, Armour Photo Gallery are producing the most incredible stuff.The books on the the M4a2 (part 1), the Firefly and the M10 have already been published. For a 'taster' go here:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/1071

Here's another:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/1031

For some superb images, plans and general inspiration:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/1194

Don't forget Concord or Histoire & Collections either - both of them have some superb material on the Sherman. The latter has an extraordinary book on British Armor in NW Europe which is worth considering: Here's a link to a review...

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/books/pb/btin.htm
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 04:03 PM UTC
Thanks for the info lads! Have all the Zaloga Concord books save for "The Sherman at War Pt.1"
Original pics provide the best reference methinks, especially for modelling a specific tank...
Those Polish books sound good Jim, pity the pics weren't accompanying the review...
Thanks again
Cheers
Brad
greatbrit
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 04:40 PM UTC
AFV club also make very good vinyl replacement sherman tracks,

As fas as i am aware they do a rubber block and 3 bar cleat (i have used these ones)

Although the rubber block is more typical of earlier tanks it was still used on late war tanks but im not sure how common 3 bar cleat was on US vehicles as most of my references cover British vehicles.

They are widely available in the US and pretty cheap.

They will fit the DML sprockets too as i have used them on a firefly before.

As Jim points out, unless you want to show suspension articulation then there is little point putting individual link tracks on shermans, or most US tanks for that matter!
jimbrae
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 05:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Those Polish books sound good Jim, pity the pics weren't accompanying the review...


That's due to the Server change underway - normal service will be resumed soon..Jim
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 11:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

For 'Walkround' type material, The Polish company, Armour Photo Gallery are producing the most incredible stuff.The books on the the M4a2 (part 1), the Firefly and the M10 have already been published.

As further encouragement there is a M10 17pdr (Achillies) and an Israeli Sherman book in the wings as well.

Paul
toadman1
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Posted: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 12:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

For 'Walkround' type material, The Polish company, Armour Photo Gallery are producing the most incredible stuff.The books on the the M4a2 (part 1), the Firefly and the M10 have already been published.

As further encouragement there is a M10 17pdr (Achillies) and an Israeli Sherman book in the wings as well.

Paul


And Part 2 of the M4A2 book as well.

Chris "toadman" Hughes
Toadman's Tank Pictures
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