Hi, everyone!

If this question has been addressed in another post, could someone tell me how to find it? I'm still discovering the full functionality of this site...

A few weeks ago, I knew only enough about M4 variants to know that I would never want to attempt one because mostly people tend to gripe about what's wrong with it. But my LCM scene has too much open water (the price of doing a large diorama - 2 feet x 3 feet!), and the Italeri kit was cheaper than dirt, so I just had to do it.

The question of the moment is turrets, but somehow I suspect that I will get an endless list of other details that need fixing. All comments are welcome, but I am fully prepared to leave the wrong number of rivets cast into the widget modulator! (Just to let you know, in case it's relevant - if I even wind up putting it in the scene, this tank will be in maybe 2.5-3 feet of surf.)

According to all the reading I've done so far, in order to fit a vehicle onto Dog Red at 0710 or so (too early to show anything else like a DUKW or something), it pretty much has to be a tank of A Company, 743rd. The kit appears to have a high-bustle 75mm gun turret with a loader's hatch. The pictures I've seen so far either of that battalion or the 741st all show only one hatch when you can make out that detail, but otherwise it looks the same to me. Many others show the commander's hatch open. If the commander's hatch has a two-part cover, does that necessarily mean there's no loader's hatch? Is there any way to tell without actually seeing the top of the turret?

So now the question is, what do I do with the turret supplied in the kit? If I just plug the loader's hatch and fill the seam, does that make me a bad person?

In some kit review I read somewhere, the reviewer complained about the rear...engine...deck...cover...thing not being right, but I had no idea what he was talking about. Anyone have a guess?

If these questions make me sound hopelessly ignorant on the technicalities of the Sherman, well... guilty as charged. My interest in history has always been the who and the where and the why, not the curve function, the radius, and the number-per-square-inch. But on the other hand, I want to avoid glaring errors, and I have a much tighter definition of "glaring" than a lot of people. I am determined, for example, to get the Weasel.org seal of approval on the M29 I am scratchbuilding for the interior of the LCM!

So I have only one book specifically on the Sherman so far (like I said, I've only been at this a few weeks) - the new Concord one on the US Funnies that has some good shots of M4 waders - but I'm drawing the budget line way short of the "Sherman bible." You know the one I mean! I am thinking about holing up in the National Archives for a couple of days to see whether I can make out any more detail on the original photos than I can from the reprints in the books.

Thanks for reading this!

John A.

Hi John ..I hate to tell you this but the Italeri M4 is really an M4A3 and was not used during the D-Day landings ...the only two kits that can really be used are the Tamiya M4 or Dragons M4A1 (older kit not the new 76mm) As for Turrets well most would still have the low bustle turrets without the loaders hatch.Both kits I mentioned have the right turret for that time period.

Rick

I don't think any Italeri Sherman kit is suitable for DDay

Wow - I knew I shouldn't have gotten involved! My understanding was that the primary difference in the versions was the engine, although I guess that would alter everything else like a ripple effect. I'll do some more reading. Maybe at some point - after I'm sufficiently recovered from the present set of diorama woes - I'll look at it with a fresh perspective.

You 'ripple effect' analogy is spot on, John....
The engine difference you noted was in a later designed hull which had a redesigned rear deck with access doors for the engine coompartment, also a 47degree (sharper) front glacis. This was to eliminate the drivers 'boxes' {as they presented a shot trap} and the hatches were redesigned to be larger and easier to evacuate... In doing so, the bustle at the turret rear would come into contact with these new hatches, therefore a 'high' bustle was designed, which had greater clearance... and so on and so on...
Don't give up!! Get an M4 or M4A1 as Rick said {with the small drivers hatches} and press on!!
Cheers
Brad

Hey John:
Don't worry about the initial steep learning curve w/Shermans. You'll find that lots of guys have mastered the idiosyncrasies to some degree and are thoroughly hooked on the tank, its variants, and its deployment.

I wrote a useful identification article here:

http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/articles.html

Many folks know the historically accurate timeframes of the various types too. If you have in mind a timeframe, battle, whatever -- float it out. You'll get good info in return.

And also don't let the whining about poor injection Sherman kits get you down. I think Shermanaholics take it as a point of pride -- many, many great Shermans are being built all the time!

Consider joining us behind the school --- you can try it. It won't hurt. Look at us, man! We're cool! Your parents don't need to know!

(just kidding of course)

Another fly in the ointment. Most sources seem to be of the opinion that the LC(M)3 was not used for landing tanks on D-Day, certainly not the Sherman. When those craft were designed, the current US tank was the M3 medium, which weighs about 27-28 tons, so it was rated to carry 30 tons. The Sherman is more like 32-33 tons, especially with all the extra deep wading gear.

Good one. A/743rd TB came ashore in LCTs, each with two M4s and one tank dozer on Omaha. More detailed info can be found in "Spearheadng D-Day"

Thanks, all -

My copy of "Spearheading D-Day" and some others - Zaloga's Osprey book on Omaha, for example, is heavily flagged. I guess I wasn't clear - the Sherman would be incidental in the scene, having nothing to do with the LCM. The landing craft will have approximately 35 engineers and a Weasel on board.

I guess the part about the photographic record that I found confusing is that, just in those two sources alone, you can tell that some of the wading tanks had cast hulls, and some welded; some had - what's the word for those skirt guards covering the returning track? - and some didn't; there were several track patterns; and it's hard for me to tell, but it looks like maybe a couple of very slightly different turrets. And I can't make out unit markings on almost any of them. So it's hard to figure out what my starting point would be in a conversion attempt.

The effort needed to do it correctly doesn't deter me - if I were that easily put off, I never would have started this project! But the Sherman learning curve is steep, as Roy pointed out. I may not have time to give it the attention it needs. And like I always say, anything worth doing is worth doing right. The first time.

By the way, I haven't seen this site linked in any of the threads, but I'm sure the 752nd TB history site would be of great interest:

www.752ndtank.com

Thanks again!

John A.

Modelers' knowledge in Shermans has increased greatly within the last 15 years. Back when the Italeri M4A1(76) and Tamiya original M4A3(75)W were the only two Shermans, the majority of conversions seen were swapped turrets.

Today most Sherman fans can tell the difference between the early low-bustled turret and later high-bustled turrets. There are kits or conversions to give us small and large hatch hulls for almost all Sherman variants from the M4, M4A1, M4A2, M4A3 and M4A4. Times are good and getting better every day.

Hi John:
The Shermans with the wading stacks would have been M4s and M4A1s (Tamiya and DML kits respectively). Wading stacks are available from TankWorkshop and Verlinden. Italeri can be modified to fit too. The others are the famous "Duplex Drive" swimmers, with the inflatable canvas sheild which allowed (some) tanks to swim ashore. Most of 743's DD tanks were dropped off close to shore so most of them made it onto the beach. 741 and 70 TB fared much worse with their DDs.

The US Duplex Drive was a late M4A1 -- to be kitted by Resicast in full resin (pricey).

*sigh*

Well, I just had to do it. I bought the Tamiya kit and will try to fit the Italeri stacks to it.




Forget my parents - my wife is going to KILL me! I really hadn't planned on this expense...

But it is such an interesting vehicle!

John A.

Good man!! Walk tall and proud. May every drop of glue go where needed, and all paint coat evenly...
And know there is no going back... :-)