Hello. I am looking to make a single diroama taking up a very large area. The space I have to work with is a standard folding table with an extension built onto it. Maybe 4.5 feet deep and between 8-10 feet long. And of course, if they work out I will upload some pictures.

The dio will be a desert scene, probably in the Iraq/Kuwait area. It will feature US forces moving against out-dated Soviet equipment and some ground troops. I will have Abrams tanks, Bradleys, Humvees, and a fair assortment of self-propelled artillery and AA vehicles. I was wondering if anyone has suggestions as to the layout? And has anyone come up with a good method for making sand dunes? And is there an efective method for making desert terrain over such a large are and making it look good?

I was also wondering if I should put the outskirts of a city on one of the far sides. I could then either make it the area the Iraqi's would be defending and retreating to, or I could make it a place where airborne troops may be battling it out with Iraqi troops. Any suggestions on this? Godd or bad idea, and if good how to pull it off?
Thanks

Gday Kev and firstly, welcome aboard!
Struth! Nothing like starting small!
:-)
I'm sure this would be a viable project, but maybe on such a vast scale you would lose the essence of a diorama, that is, a story captured in a moment? The knowledge of the structure of US forces (accuracy of deployment?) and generating enough interest outside of the AFVs themselves... The city outskirts would be a good starting point for this I reckon. Can definitely be done, but I'm sure a lot of pre-planing would be necessary. The height and area of the dunes for instance. A base this size would allow a definitive gap between the forces, I imagine? This would have brewed up AFVs of the retreating force etc. and maybe a wadi or oasis or similar to break up the sandy expanses? Even a smaller scale mock-up may be worthwhile, as the larger scale dio will be a huge project you would want to get right...
All the best with it though
Cheers
Brad

Thank you Brad.
I do have some planning done on the main desert scene, and some basic ideas for the city. I was hoping that using this I could have a few smaller stories that all connect into one larger one. I am actually inquiring to the US Army Public Relations center to find out the composition of an Armoured Cav Regiment so I can portray maybe a small unit within that, and make sure things are at least reasonably accurate.

To sort of break up the desert I was going to have some retreating Iraqi vehicles and troops, some wounded, and one or two dead scattered around. I was also going to work on a few T-55s, and make one a destroyed unit. I like your idea about the oasis as well so probably add that.

I also planned for one Bradley to be stopped with the ramp down and infantry dismounting to collect prisoners. With my artillery section I have a lot to work with. I can have some ready to fire, some setting up, and troops pulling shells of of the accompanying trucks.

I thought of this situation when I found the base I had to work with, just because in videos I have seen of the first Desert Storm the vehicles are spread out quite a bit. Im definately not going to do it as one big project. I plan do do it in sections: one for the artillery, one for advancing US forces, and one for retreating Iraqis, with the city being an additional one or two sections. More like 3-5 smaller dio's put together.

Your project sounds like a great undertaking. It's uncannily similar to one I've been in the process of doing for far too long, involving several types of burned out Soviet vehicles. It's a desert scene as well, but a different war altogether. All I've managed to do are the vehicles so far...

Might I suggest a forced perspective dio so that you can have your city outskirts on one end? You can divide your dio with a highway overpass or a change in elevation. Then use 1/72 scale vehicles on that end. You'll be able to get a lot more into it, yet have your nicely detailed 1/35 vehicles in the foreground.
As for your sand dunes, I have had success in my initial tests by using building foam. It cuts and shapes very easily. Model railroad scenery books by Kalmbach are great resources.
I've recently purchased several soft skins which MIGHT work for yours as well. The Gaz-66 (there's even an AA version) and Ural 4320 are relatively inexpensive, well detailed, and a lot of fun to burn up.

Best of luck with it and keep us posted.

Thanks to everyone who posted. I think all of the ideas are great and very helpful. Now its just down to planning and seeing which I can manage, then deciding on one and going from there.

I do like the idea of some sort of strongpoint or chokepoint. And I think the building foam would work very easily for my sand dunes, thanks.

I am also now considering an idea a friend gave me, and thought it would be good to share. I dont know how well it would work, but it is interesting at least. He at least one of my T-55's should be the victim of a "Catastrophic kill", basically where the turret flies off the tank after it is hit. His idea was to build the tank as normal, then make sure the turret fits nicely, but is very easily removed. But a small firecracker or firework in the body of the tank and set it off. It would give a realistic placement of the turret after it fell, and give some pretty nice scorch marks to the tank. Then pick of the body and add paint as needed to represent a destroyed tank.

By my calculations the main gun (the 155mm) has a range of 14,600 meters in 1/35 scale that would be 1368.5 ft so assuming they close to half thier range to fire your dio would need to be in the area of 600 ft. I would opt for an ambush type scene - open desert war is fought at great distances. Having the ability to shoot farther -see at night and shoot while moving is why we smacked Iraqi armor in Desert Storm. Not to mention killing thier tanks with Hellfires from Apaches.Perhaps US armor advancing through defeated Iraqi tanks and firing a "check round" into the enemy would work also tanks spread out to keep friendly fire losses to a minimum. so that would add to the overall size.

"His idea was to build the tank as normal, then make sure the turret fits nicely, but is very easily removed. But a small firecracker or firework in the body of the tank and set it off. It would give a realistic placement of the turret after it fell, and give some pretty nice scorch marks to the tank. Then pick of the body and add paint as needed to represent a destroyed tank."

Models aare made of plastic Tanks are made of steel 0 there is almost always just a small hole to show for a kill- russian armor tends to keep fuel storage external so you could model ruptured fuel tanks and some burning- NO FIRECRACKERS!

In some of the Soviet tank designs though, the fuel line runs runs very near, or around the turret, so it is a fuel hit that usually causes the catastrophic kills that knocks the turret off. I did rethink the firecracker, as it would cause unrelastic scaring on the inside, I may just look at photos to find a realistic placement, or use something with compressed air instead.

Sorry mate, but that will not happen. Soviet tanks runs on diesel fuel and diesel will burn, but not explode in a way that will rip the turret off. There are basically two ways that will happen. Either from the share force in a SABOT fired from a tank (f.ex an M1A1) or an explosion in the tanks ammunition storage, caused by hits from tank rounds (HEAT or SABOT) or AT weapons. There are probably more ways, but my main point is that diesel fuel will not cause an explosion powerfull enough to rip off the turret.

Erik

I would not use the Artillery, as they would not be deployed in the middle of a firefight... Artillery is deployed miles from the front, and ( this is where I may be wrong) does not normally travel with the Cavalry. I suggest the outskirts on one side, with perhaps the Iraqi troops taking up defesive/ambush positions amongst the houses. The Tanks can be approaching from the other end of your dio, with some destroyed/abandoned vehicles in the middle. This will give your diorama a natural flow, from one end to the other. Adding Artillery is going to look out of place, and the viewer will be distracted.
Unless the tank you want to show with the turret blown off has an interior, even a burnt out one, it will not look right. Also remember that you are going to depict an action scene, any 'burnt out' vehicles might look out of place, as vehicles killed during your 'action' would still be burning...

Sounds like an exciting project, please keep us updated on your progress.

Cheers
Henk

Erik Torp, thank you. I had to dig out the old books to research it some more. It was the ammo that caused those types of explosions. The part I was thinking of was that sometimes a hit of that fuel line could ignite the ammunition, so I was mistaken.

Henk Meerdink, you are probably right as well. The artillery would be a little out of place, even if at one end of the table with the tanks being in the middle. They would be way too close. I guess I just wanted to fit them in because I have a few artillery and air defense units that as of yet I dont have a place for. I also thought it might be good because there is a lot of action in an artillery section. I may have to start a second, smaller dio for the artillery now. Im still waiting for a response from the Public Relations Office, but I do think an Armoured Cav Regiment does have some artillery (mobile guns, and MLRS systems).

Also true that the tank would still be burning. I have looked up a few ways to make fire and smoke and found one or two that I am pretty happy with and think I can do. The interior wasnt a big problem for me. I have plenty of interior detail sets to rummage through as a few friends of mine never use their interior details, they just focus on the outside.

I now actually have my table set up and almost completely sanded to get rid of marks left by model train tracks and all the rough spots. Right now Im picking up builders foam for dunes and working out how I will do the desert terrain. For something this large I may just use fine sand instead of worrying that you can see the grains even though in scale you wouldnt be able to. Also found another table like this one that I could pick up for about $10. Im having thoughts about getting it now and maybe creating an Urban scene with my Airborne units......but that would be another story altogether.

Edit: Went to finish sanding and my table collapsed where the extension was built in. This one is on hold until I fix and reinforce it.

I would humbly suggest that you start with something considerably smaller and work up to the "monster diorama." Maybe just one Bradley and one M113 driving past a burnt out Iraqi tank, like this:



Battle damage is really hard to pull off realistically, especially catastrophic damage like this.

Just a thought.

Shaun

Maybe these pictures could help you out.

www.grunt.com/.../marine-corps-bs/iraq12.asp" TARGET="_blank"> www.grunt.com/.../marine-corps-bs/iraq12.asp

Hi,

As long as you are planning a large dio, welcome to the insanity club. How about a forced perspective where the figures and the vehicles in the front are a larger scale than in the middle and smaller yet in the back? This would give the impression of a huge area.

I've been wanting to try something like this (i.e. Normandy landing), but i have been trying to finish my one project, a diorama, for 15 years!!! Good luck!

Sealhead