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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Name this Sherman variant...
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:28 PM UTC
Gday all
Would anyone know if this is a M4A4 or M4A2? (Sure, the frontal shot helps this a lot...) If it helps it is possibly from the 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry 29th Armoured Brigade.... What would be distinguishing features from front on?
Maybe a M4A3 though?
Any help greatly appreciated...
Cheers
Brad
P.S. Credit Concord "The Battle of the Bulge" for the pic...
Drader
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:52 PM UTC
Well, the 3-piece nose suggests a Sherman V as the Sherman III more often had the later 1-piece. Not a clincher though.

Chances of it being an M4A3 are remote in the extreme as the US Army held onto them.

I'm sure there were other pictures taken at the time, though I can't find any (yet) in the IWM collection. Brain fades after the first 10 pages or so of thumbnails

IWM Collection
barv
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 01:17 PM UTC

Contact the old C Sqn HQ in Cupar Fife ---they hold the archives and photos..........try
http://www.army.mod.uk/qoy/c-squadron/ffy_sh/events/2005_events/ 2005_december.htm
http://www.army.mod.uk/qoy/c-squadron/ffy_sh/history/ffy/index.htm
"QUOTE"
In the early morning July mist the Sherman tanks of the 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry waddled up to the start line, their engines throbbing insistently across the still Normandy countryside. Ahead lay the shock of battle, but whatever fears their crews had they kept to themselves as they went through the pre-combat checks. Radios crackled with last minute orders as the regiment’s squadron commanders went through the familiar routine of checking and rechecking equipment. Inside the steel hulls, the troopers felt the familiar gut-wrenching anticipation of battle, the sinking feeling in the stomach, the cold sweat and the sudden need to defecate. The tankers of the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry had good reason to feel anxious. They were about to take part in Operation Goodwood, a huge armoured assault to break out from the bridgehead of the D-Day landings and that meant engaging German tanks which were superior to theirs in every way. With their heavy steel armour plating and their high-velocity 88mm flak gun, the German Mark VI Tiger was a formidable opponent. The only hope for a Sherman crew was to get in close and hope that a lucky shot from their 75mm gun would hit the achilles heel of the Tiger’s side and rear armour-plating. Otherwise they knew what lay in store: a direct hit and their petrol engine would blaze with an intensity which would frazzle them in seconds. It was called “brewing up” and, by the early afternoon, 13 of the Yeomanry’s Shermans had met that fate even before they had reached their first objective. Nobody who took part in that bloody battle ever forgot the carnage.
" END QUOTE"
In passing -- may I say am extremely honoured to have been a serving member of the FFY/SH A SQN TA in the early '60's
aye
BARV
(GOSMG)
Drader
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 01:26 PM UTC
The tank in the picture is probably one of the ones that had to be rescued quickly from a dump as 11th Armoured Division had turned in its Shermans and was preparing to convert to Comets. The outbreak of the Battle of the Bulge led to rapid re-equipping with a variety of battle-worn tanks.
ukgeoff
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 02:11 PM UTC
I'd say it's an M4A4 (Sherman V) as well, going by the style of the antenna pot combined with the three piece tranny.
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 06:31 PM UTC
Thanks lads! We are in agreeance on the M4A4 then...
Murdo~ That's a compelling description there... Knowing you're outgunned
ericadeane
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Posted: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 08:31 PM UTC
Hi Brad:
I'll chime in that given the "squash" antenna pot, the 3 piece transmission and the drivers' hoods, it most likely is an M4A4. No M4A3s were used operationally by the Brits and the few that were delivered for trials were late glacis 75mm gun tanks anyways.

I have to take issue with BARV's citation about the dramatic build up and dread of British and Cdn tankers before Goodwood. Although I'm sure every combatant had an amount of fear, anxiety, etc, I think the author falsely builds up the dread over enemy 88mm guns and Tigers.

The fact is that, from the Allied side, Goodwood had all the earmarks of a successful operation to break the Caen stalemate. Earlier tank encounters(besides Villers Bocage) weren't lopsided -- Allied thrusts were stopped but they knew they inflicted great German losses too.

That morning everyone saw enemy positions being engulfed beneath tons of Allied bombs. The sheer no. of Allied armor would have emboldened many attackers that day. Superior artillery, naval guns and close-in air support was available. What wasn't anticipated was the effective defense in depth of the German defenders and the piecemeal thrusts due to congested choke points due to the volume of Allied armor.. Basically the Goodwood attacks were bled white and the disaster afterwards was plain to everyone.

My point is that the paragraph seems to imply that the average British or Canadian tanker was sitting in dread for the day's operations. Given what was known at that moment, I contend that most Allied soldiers were extremely optimistic -- and not sitting there sullen, like Tommies going "over the top" at the Somme decades earlier.

My two cents.
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 12:05 AM UTC
Hi Roy,

I think your right and you're also very wrong. Many of the younger troops who hadn't been in battle before might well have been keyed up and ready to go but those who had seen battle knew fine well what they were up against and that their chances of survival depended on luck as much as anything else. They also knew what a poor match for the German Armour and 88's their Shermans were.

Every soldier feels fear either before, during or after a battle, it''s only training and discipline that stop that fear turning into panic, that an a hell of a lot of 'courage'.

Here's a little extract from the 'Armoured Mikcs' about fighting in a tank.

Quote Page 28/28

As a member of a tank crew, (Ballynahinch was my first) I was co-driver/bow gunner. One had a very lmited view when closed down. The peri-telescope was out only means of vision except for the tank commander who usully kept his head above the turret ring to get an all- round view. This reminds me of one of our early battles in which the tank commander was decapitated by a German A.P. shot. At least he went quickly - God help him. (It was in Ballynahinch that Frank Hetherington was wounded on the 11th August during the battalion's last battle in Normandy. He returned a few months later, had four more tanks shot from under him, and was again wounded just two week before the war in Europe ended).

What was it like to be a member of a tank crew? We all became very close to each other and depended on one another. The commander could see better what was happening because he usually kept the hatch open. The remainder of the crew had to depend on their peri-telescope. However, in battle, the person who had almost no chance of using the peri-telescope was the wireless op/loader. He was so busy loading and re loading the 17-pounder or 75mm and the .300 co-axil Browning, and clearing possible stoppages on the Browning - not to memtion his duties in radio communication - that he hadn't any visual idea of what was happening. However, he could hear on the intercom and radio nets and, not being able to see, he was all the more stressed up. It was as a wireless op/loader with Bill Eager as gunner, that several more tanks were knocked out.

I have served in 75mm and 17-pounder tanks. When the guns were firing continuously particularly the 17-pounder - the suffocating stink of cordite was almost unbearable - especially the 17-pounder which had a much larger breech block, on the wireless op/loaders side. IIt also (on recoil) emitted a large flame from the recoiling breech, on the wireless op/loader's side. I tried to remember to lean away from the 17-pounder as I did not wish to be squahsed or singed. The cooling system of the Sherman tank served to keep our feet cold, but did not improve the turret atmosphere.

Bill Eager, for much of the campaign a member of the same crew, expands this theme...

Apart from two seats, one on either side of the gun breech, the tank commander either stood turret floor or sat on a small circular hinged seat with his knees in the gunner' back and with his head sticking out of the turret. This particular pose was not the most enviable, as heads always seemed to attract snipers' bullets. The gunner and loader were surrounded by pieces of equipment, racks, containers, periscopes and control gear all fitted into various places where head and body contact was possible and at times quite painful.

The driver and co-driver shared a side by side position from which the tiller bars controlling the direction of the tank, or the .300 Browning hull gun which protruded into the compartment could be be used. Both of these crew members had limited access into the turret, but this was only available if the turret cage was in a certain postiion. In action, when the hatches were battened down, it was possible for the barrel of the gun to be directly over the driver's hatch or the co-driver's hatch; should this be so and none of the several positions lined up with the access holes into the turret, neither of the two in the front of the tank could get out if the tank was knocked out in action. Should this happen it became the gunners responsibility to try and rotate the turret to get the gun clear of the hatches or to elevate the barrel high enough for the hatch covers to be swung open. Should he elevate the barrel of the gun however, it could prevent the loader from getting out from the far side of the turret, especially in the case of the 17-pounder gun, which had a huge breech mechanism. To get him out required the gun barrel to be fully depressed so that he could get under and out from his position. All this had to be done after the tank had been hit, and the possibility of the thing going up in flames was the most important fear in the mind. Some would say that the escape hatch in the bottom of the turret was designed to evacuate the crew in case of emergency, but in the case of fire it only fed more air to the flames or brought the engine compatrment flames with it.

Page 65

Bill Eager was at this time with the Divisional Forward Delivery Squadron, whose task it was to move up behine the armoured battalions as the action progressed, supplyng the tanks and crews to replace the losses brought about by enemy action. He tells how ...

Wedged into the gate was a burnt out Sherman and strung along behind it on the verge were two more, all knocked out and brewed up. Our convoy stopped and Sgt Ronayne and an officer went forward to recce the situation. On returning several minutes later we were told to dismount. The tanks were from our own Battalon and bore the number 53 with the Ever Open Eye shield. Tony Samuelson told us that there was still evidence of bodies inside the hulks, and we must remove what we could from the tank's innards, try to identify the remains and give them a decent burial.

... I cannot describe our feelings as we scrambled up onto the brewed-up hulks. It was our first encounter with our own dead. We peered into the smoke-blackened interiors and witnessed the terrible scene of destruction within. The inside of the turrets had been wrecked, as fittings and equipment had been hurled around the walls either by the shots that had penetrated or the explosion of the ammunition in the racks, detonated by the heat of the burning tank. The sweet sickly stentch of death was all around us as we prepared to get on with the job we had been told to do. We worked for several hours clambering in and out of the turrets and reaching through into the driving compartments handing out to waiting hands the pathetic charred remains of the late occupants, reverently confining them to a blanket along side the tank. ...........

............ It would have been better to have buried the tanks completely with the undisturbed remains left in their dignified positions, as warriors who had paid the ultimate price for their service, but the facts of life are not that simple, as the tanks would invariably be needed to fight again. ...........

Unquote

Optimistic yes, but only a fool would be unaware of the danger once battle had been joined.

Why do you think so many untried battalions were committed to the D Day assault? Experienced soldiers are much less fool hardy that those who still think war is a game.

That's my 2 cents worth.

From my limited knowledge I also think it is a Mk V.

Cheers

Al
ericadeane
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Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 04:54 AM UTC
Hi Alan:
I guess in my criticism of the generalizations in the quote in Barv's reply, I overgereralized myself! LOL

I don't mean to say that pre-battle jitters didn't affect the crews. However, my gripe is with the melodramatic language in the particular paragraph. Without insights such as you included, the reader would have been left with the impression that the Goodwood crews only saw Paks and Tigers dancing in their minds which drove them to the point of dread.

As the seemingly mundane issues that you bring up in your post by the crews themselves, I posit that what was on the forefront of most crews was the question of "Will I perform my duties well in today's upcoming battle? WIll I let my mates down?"

This isn't to diminish the lethality of the impending battle, but the cited writer would have you believe that this was all there was. I contend (and would say that your citation supports) that MANY forces were in the minds of attacking crews prior to Goodwood. However the oft-used points about German "eighty-eights" and "Tigers" seems trite in that cited paragraph. It doesn't do enough tribute to the tribulations and trials that all tank crew had to endure (and hopefully survive through).

Rgrds,
Roy
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 11:47 AM UTC
Hi Roy,

Just passing on some stuff from the 'Horses Mouth' so to speak. I think you're right in saying morale was high, it was. Many of the troops had been training for several years for the battle and I take your point about the original quote being a bit melodramatice, but if you think about it on an individual level most people would have been scared, certainely apprehensive and in some cases quite terrified, so it's probably quite close to the mark.

The British had been fighting since the beginning of the war and had by that time already come into contact with the German 88's and Tigers in N Africa so the strength of the German Armour was well known about even if many of the younger troops hadn't been in action.

There's a good account in Sir John Gorman's book The Times of My Life about his encounter with a King Tiger and three Tigers at the start of Op Goodwood (also covered in the Armoured Micks). He was a tank Commander at that time and having become bogged down and separated from the main Squadron came across the above Panzer Gp in a Mk V. The troops had heard about the existance of the King Tiger but up to that point in time never seen one. The crew had discussed what they would do if they came across one and deided that the only thing they could do was ram it, which was exactly what they did firing a shot into the rear of the tank before they crashed into it. Scared the hell out of the German Crew who bailed out as did Gorman and his crew.

He then took command of a nearby Firefly, the cmdr had been decapitated, and drove off the 3 Tigers, who along with the King Tiger had been happily knocking out a whole series of tanks advancing further down in the valley.

As I said before training, discipline and a sense of duty, not wanting to let you mates down, lead ordinary men to brave and courageous deeds and stop fear becoming panic.

From what I've read the crews did worry about the German 88's a lot because they often could't see them to shoot back at and one hit was usually enough to 'brew up' a Sherman. Tank to tank at least they had speed to get away provided they had any time to react.

Barv's quote is just one way to put over the sense of apprehension that most soldiers feel before a battle. If I remember correctly the kill ratio was 4/5 Shermans for every German Tank Destroyed. Not good odds for the Allies.

I would think that the original quote is probably from the Regimental History, or a personal account, so I personally wouldn't doubt it, whether one likes the writing style or not.

Cheers

Al

ALBOWIE
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 04:01 AM UTC
The tank is a Coldstream Guards M4A4 gaurding bridges (Meuse - Maas?)during the Battle of the Bulge. Other images from this series (Time Life?)exist including a well known shot of a Hybrid Firefly . These are frequently attributed to being 2 F&F yeomanry but are actually Coldstream Guards. Some of these pics appear in the book Armoured Guardsman - the authour of which is the Comd of the well known Firefly mentioned above.
Cheers
Al
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 04:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Basically the Goodwood attacks were bled white and the disaster afterwards was plain to everyone.

My point is that the paragraph seems to imply that the average British or Canadian tanker was sitting in dread for the day's operations. Given what was known at that moment, I contend that most Allied soldiers were extremely optimistic -- and not sitting there sullen, like Tommies going "over the top" at the Somme decades earlier.

My two cents.



Other texts such as a Fine Night for Tanks etc give a differing view of the "Impending Doom" scenario as you allude.
Far from being a Disaster Goodwood should be seen by the results and the subsequent series of events. Goodwood/Totalize etc destroyed or incapacitated 90% of the German Armour committed to the Normandy Campaign and force the german to commit there reserves to contain the Allies. If this had not happened then COBRA would have been a failure as the Strong german Armour formations would have driven through the exposed flank of the US forces resulting in catastrophe.
Historian relate Goodwood etc as a failure due to the large allied losses but it was a Tactical AND Strategic victory which is very overlooked. Even Patton who was no fan of Monty gave them the credit at the time as he recognised that the threat to his flanks had been removed.
Cheers
AL
AlanL
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 04:54 AM UTC
Hi Al,

100% correct. Many people perceive that Goodwood was a failure, but as you rightly point our it was exactly the opposite. It sucked the Germans in, beld them dry and effectively finished them as a fighting force in Normandy.

Thanks for the info on the tanks, I'll have to look out for a copy of the 'Armoured Guardsmen'.

Cheers

Al (that could be confusing!!)
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 02:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The tank is a Coldstream Guards M4A4 gaurding bridges (Meuse - Maas?)during the Battle of the Bulge. Other images from this series (Time Life?)exist including a well known shot of a Hybrid Firefly . These are frequently attributed to being 2 F&F yeomanry but are actually Coldstream Guards.


Thanks for this info Al, I have seen the other pic too...
Will do some more research tonight!
Cheers
Brad
AlanL
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 04:06 PM UTC
Hi Brad,

Sorry if things got a little off track there. Here's a link to the MAFVA Resources site which has listing of some 1st Battalion (armd) Coldstream Guards WD Numbers that may be of some use to you.

http://www.mafva.org.uk/Resources.asp


ust go to tank names and click on 'here'

Cheers

Al
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