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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Olive drab colour difference
PanzerKarl
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Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 08:39 PM UTC
Ok you can say olive drab is olive drab.but there is some subtle differences.theres dark olive drab,then a slightly lighter colour followed by a light olive drab.

example 1(dark)




example 2 (lighter colour)


example 3 (light olive drab)


As am about to start painting my firefly and cromwell,i carnt deside what to go for,dark or light or one dark and the other a colour change of lighter olive drab.
these two tanks will be in a dio together.

or am i just banging my head against a brick wall :-)

Whats you opinions
cheers
Martinnnn
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Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 09:07 PM UTC
iirc British OD was a bit darker than the US OD so I'd go for the dark version, as seen on the firefly you posted.

Martin
Easy_Co
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Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 09:17 PM UTC
Is that firefly olive drab that colour looks more like sovreign green, i could be wrong though. i think with olive drab you have to consider weathering, how long has the vehicle been in the field.
Prato
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Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 09:49 PM UTC
Well, I thought it was the other way around: dark for tha Americans and light for the English! Guess I was wrong!
Cheers and happy modelling!
Prato
blaster76
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 01:02 AM UTC
I think there are an equal number of variations of olive drab as there are stars in the sky (as has been hashed out here hundreds of times). As has been determined by the peanut gallery (of which I am a proud member) go with whatever color you have. I use model masters enamel and vary the shades by using medium green, green drab,faded OD, and olive drab.
generalzod
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 04:52 AM UTC
Karl

I do believe that the British Army used bronze green for post war vehicles During the European campaign it was like a khaki drab Tamiya has that color Generally,Tamiya has the best OD for W.W.2
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 05:30 AM UTC
ONHWGA
US 6 Ton Tank
US 6 Ton Tank

Same tank, same paint, different lighting conditions. and they managed to finish repainting the room. :-)
screamingeagle
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 06:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think there are an equal number of variations of olive drab as there are stars in the sky (as has been hashed out here hundreds of times). As has been determined by the peanut gallery (of which I am a proud member) go with whatever color you have. I use model masters enamel and vary the shades by using medium green, green drab,faded OD, and olive drab.


"Boy oh boy ", Steve you said a mouth full. I agree totally ( stars in the sky ).
If there is one ... only one ridiculous arguement that I have heard, it's some modeler / military researcher who comes along and lays on a rap of "what is ' and "what isn't ' the correct shade of hobby paint to use for olive drab used by the Allies or Dunkelgelb ( dark yellow ) used by the Germans in WW2. Close enough, is good enough !

- ralph
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 09:11 PM UTC
Risky to match Olive Drab from preserved vehicles, since the maintenance people are often at the mercy of their local paint stores. The two US vehicles in the pictures are well-weathered and quite faded (remember, the US tanks in combat during the war were repainted at least yearly, and many were just a few months old, so most "fading" seen in period photos is actually a layer of road dust--wipe it away or drench the vehicle in the rain, and the finish looks dark and new again). Steve Zaloga reported that Tamiya's OD is the closest match out of the bottle for the official Ordnance Dept. color cards for No. 9 Olive Drab as issued to manufacturers. He suggests cutting it with a little German Armor Sand for scale effect. The other manufacturers' paints are mostly matched to aviation paints, either No. 41, AN613 or FS-34087 (the FS-595 chip for FS-34087 was altered in 1967 to match the shade introduced for Army helicopters in 1965--earlier editions of the color guide showed a much darker color).
There isn't a good out of the bottle match for British SCC 15 (so-called British Olive Drab or Khaki Drab), but I am suspicious of the dark glossy paint on the Firefly in your photo--it may be intended to represent Deep Bronze Green, a color that was reintroduced after the war ended. Pactra's old Artillery Olive was supposed to be a good match for SCC 15. The MAFVA website offers color mixes for Humbrol.
As for variations, every batch of paint will deviate slightly from the standards, and a lazy factory worker or soldier who doesn't stir the paint properly before application can throw the shade way off. Still, it is helpful to know where to start before altering your OD.
KellyZak
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Posted: Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 10:04 PM UTC
For my firefly, I used Tamiya's AS-9 Spray paint, it was recomended to me by a friend, who said the the British used a different colour green than the US, and that it would be a fairly decent match...and after washes and weathering, it's gonna be a different shade anyways...


Halfyank
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 01:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think there are an equal number of variations of olive drab as there are stars in the sky (as has been hashed out here hundreds of times). As has been determined by the peanut gallery (of which I am a proud member) go with whatever color you have. I use model masters enamel and vary the shades by using medium green, green drab,faded OD, and olive drab.



Here, here. Maybe we need a new set of initials?

T.A.J.O.T.A.O.D.P.O.T.M

There aint just one totally accurate olive drab paint on the market.


Or maybe.

J.U.W.P.Y.H.

Just use whatever paint you have.

One trick that was tought me, probably by somebody who has already replied, that one good thing is to have as many different brands of olive drab as you can. Each is going to be just a bit different and that way you'll get the range of colors that were in real life.




shado67
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 09:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

iirc British OD was a bit darker than the US OD so I'd go for the dark version, as seen on the firefly you posted.


The reference books I have call it Kahki Drab for Brit tanks in NW Europe. Looks to be darker than US Oliv Drab but not a dark or soverign green.

I use Humbrol 159 for Brit tanks like Cromwell and Humbrol 155 for US Shermans.
shado67
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 09:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I think there are an equal number of variations of olive drab as there are stars in the sky (as has been hashed out here hundreds of times). As has been determined by the peanut gallery (of which I am a proud member) go with whatever color you have. I use model masters enamel and vary the shades by using medium green, green drab,faded OD, and olive drab.


"Boy oh boy ", Steve you said a mouth full. I agree totally ( stars in the sky ).
If there is one ... only one ridiculous arguement that I have heard, it's some modeler / military researcher who comes along and lays on a rap of "what is ' and "what isn't ' the correct shade of hobby paint to use for olive drab used by the Allies or Dunkelgelb ( dark yellow ) used by the Germans in WW2. Close enough, is good enough !

- ralph


AMEN!! Brother....

Find me an expert and I will show you a liar full of S@#% (Stuff). I to cary different brands to help vary the shades and variety. If it looks good or looks right, it is right!
shado67
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 10:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Steve Zaloga reported that Tamiya's OD is the closest match out of the bottle for the official Ordnance Dept. color cards for No. 9 Olive Drab as issued to manufacturers. He suggests cutting it with a little German Armor Sand for scale effect.


OK, I know this will stir up the devout and zealous and surely bring on cries of heresy, but here goes.....

Steven Zaloga may be an expert on armor photos and variations and sherman variants, but he is using his eyes to match up a color card with a tamiya paint bottle. The "report" you are talking about was his opinion (he eyeballed it). He did not use any analytical equipment (there actually is such equipment that is used to match old historic paint chips from old houses for custom paints for restoration jobs) to match the colors, so it cant be called fact. It just looks right to him. Show the color card to 10 other people and they will tell you it matches 10 other brands.

Vary your brands as I am sure all the manufacturers think they are right and are probably no closer than any others.

I do have a problem with Tamiya though. I just question how accurate their colors are. They call for XF-61 Dark Green on Russain tanks, British tanks of WWII and modern british tanks. Wether the kit is 30 years old like the T-34 or the more recent Cromwell, they still call for Dark Green. Now are they telling me that Brit tanks and Russian tanks are the same color green, because my reference books tell me otherwise? So if they dont have this color right, how accurate is their dark yellow or OD? Is it accurate because we have read hundreds of articles and seen the beautiful photos in the magazines of finshed models with Tamiya dark yellow and we take it as fact? I am not saying any other brand is better, it just seems a lot of people just assume Tamiya has it right.

I have OD from almost every brand and some have more than one shade. I dont know if any are "accurate" or the actual shade, but i do know no 2 match exactly.

Until a manufacturer comes out and says they did the research on actual paint chips with accurate equipemnt and tests we can only go with what looks good.

OK bring on the rocks and whipping canes and be gentle....

shado67
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 10:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

For my firefly, I used Tamiya's AS-9 Spray paint, it was recomended to me by a friend, who said the the British used a different colour green than the US, and that it would be a fairly decent match...and after washes and weathering, it's gonna be a different shade anyways...


Nice work. Is that the DML kit? What tracks did you use?
DJC
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 01:06 PM UTC
Karl

As you're painting a British tank and a US tank modified in Britain, they should be Standard Camoufage Colour 15 Olive Drab rather than US No 9 Olive Drab. While SCC 15 was introduced with the intention of doing away with the need to repaint US supplied vehicles, the two colours are different.

Perhaps the best way to illustrate that is to refer you to the colour charts on the Matador site:

http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/tank_museum/camo%20charts/cooperCamotimeline-Britishsheet(2).htm

Based on the work of Mike Starmer, the chart gives the following mixes:

SCC15 - 5 X Humbrol 150 + 5 X H155 + 2 X Black

US No 9 OD - Revell 42 + H155 (equal parts)

Then there's fading, weathering, etc.

Have fun.

David
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 01:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

OK, I know this will stir up the devout and zealous and surely bring on cries of heresy, but here goes.....

Steven Zaloga may be an expert on armor photos and variations and Sherman variants, but he is using his eyes to match up a color card with a Tamiya paint bottle. The "report" you are talking about was his opinion (he eyeballed it). He did not use any analytical equipment (there actually is such equipment that is used to match old historic paint chips from old houses for custom paints for restoration jobs) to match the colors, so it can't be called fact. It just looks right to him. Show the color card to 10 other people and they will tell you it matches 10 other brands.

Vary your brands as I am sure all the manufacturers think they are right and are probably no closer than any others.

I do have a problem with Tamiya though. I just question how accurate their colors are. They call for XF-61 Dark Green on Russian tanks, British tanks of WWII and modern British tanks. Whether the kit is 30 years old like the T-34 or the more recent Cromwell, they still call for Dark Green. Now are they telling me that Brit tanks and Russian tanks are the same color green, because my reference books tell me otherwise? So if they don't have this color right, how accurate is their dark yellow or OD? Is it accurate because we have read hundreds of articles and seen the beautiful photos in the magazines of finshed models with Tamiya dark yellow and we take it as fact? I am not saying any other brand is better, it just seems a lot of people just assume Tamiya has it right.

I have OD from almost every brand and some have more than one shade. I dont know if any are "accurate" or the actual shade, but i do know no 2 match exactly.

Until a manufacturer comes out and says they did the research on actual paint chips with accurate equipemnt and tests we can only go with what looks good.

OK bring on the rocks and whipping canes and be gentle....


Hoo boy, now we need spectrometers to match paint samples? At least Zaloga used a period color card to match it. Most other manufacturers used the FS-595a color standard, and apparently didn't know that its color card for FS-34087 was tampered with in 1967, and that FS-34087 no longer represented original OD. Their colors actually match the revised color card pretty well--it's just that it's the wrong color card. In fact they match each other pretty well--compare Model Master with Humbrol FS-34087and they are extremely close (the older Humbrol 66 was apparently intended to match the original OD shade, but they also appear to have skimped on some of the pigments, as it's pretty gray).

And nobody suggested that all Tamiya colors are accurate for all specified uses--we were just talking about OD. Obviously Tamiya wants to make their rather small color range match many more official colors than it really can. They have only formulated a few "important" colors, and then settle for the nearest match when a model requires a color they didn't formulate. In their judgement, US and German WW2 and Cold War camouflage colors are important, as those subjects make up the bulk of their product line. Russian and British subjects don't, and they haven't bothered creating custom colors for them (sadly, none of the major manufacturers do a British SCC15 Olive Drab/Khaki Drab or a trustworthy Russian Olive Drab--small makers like White Ensign have stepped up, but their products are hard to find). Manufacturers can and do cut corners for economic reasons, and that's why we modelers have to "trust but verify."

So I use Tamiya OD as a starting point before I adulterate it with a little white or sand or some random primary color to make it represent an individual batch. If it suits you to use a different approach, go ahead--Francois Verlinden just chooses any old green on the theory that by the time he's done with all the washes and dry brushing, it's so filthy that the original color is academic. It works for him.
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 01:50 PM UTC
Go with somethin what you think looks right Karl, and if upon displaying the finished piece someone says "HEY BUDDY! That paintjob ain't NCC-1701! (or whatever) Who you kiddin'?!" Let me know... :-)
Cheer
Brad
KellyZak
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 07:27 PM UTC
I agree with Gerald and the Verlinden statement, with me I do the same thing, by the time I'm done the resemblence of the original paint shade is not there, so as long as I have a basic colour, it's gonna change anyways. I do agree however about the Tamiya's colour choices, I recently stopped using the Dark Yellow, Dark Green and Red Brown for my German Armour, to me it just looks way too dark, and of course by the time I'm done weathering, the whole thing just looks even more dark, so I switched to lighter shades, and I love the results!

Mike, yes it's a Dragon kit, I think it's their first issue of the Firefly, it was really fun to build, and my very first major Allied piece. The tracks used were AFV Club's "extended hull" Sherman tracks (rubber band kind) A bit of a tight fit, with a little soaking in hot water, can be stretched very carefully to fit on.
propboy44256
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Posted: Monday, May 01, 2006 - 08:18 PM UTC
Sun fadeing has to have something to do with the varous shades of OD
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 05:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Sun fading has to have something to do with the various shades of OD

Definitely...
tankmodeler
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Posted: Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 11:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

During the European campaign it was like a khaki drab Tamiya has that color


Quoted Text

The reference books I have call it Kahki Drab for Brit tanks in NW Europe.


There is NO colour called Khaki Drab and never was, older references and Tamiya bottles, notwithstanding.

As was mentioned the only correct British colour for NE Europe was SCC15 Olive Drab. American lend-lease vehicles that didn't require repainting were left in US OD and Brit vehicles and those that required a repaint (like a Firefly after all the rework) would be SCC15.

SCC15 and OD were apparently both very similar in tone with the Brit colour being just slightly more green. SCC15 tended to fade greener than US OD over time, but most vehicles were NOT very faded because they were relatively new. Even in the field, paint faded slowly.

And, as was also mentioned, it was never Steve's intention to say that all Tamiya paints matched their supposed title or stated use, just that their OD happened to be the best match to the wartime OD colour reference cards he has personally seen. My opinion has always been that if you start off with a colour that closely matches the original and then do your fading/light effects from there you are more likely to get a better result with less hassle than if you start from a colour that is far away from the original.

As for the OD paints on the three tanks, I would believe that the top Firefly is a good slightly-faded SCC15 match with the others being reasonable matches for faded US Army Air Corps OD (319??), which was a much lighter shade and was used for the USAAC aircraft throughout WW II. It looks nothing like Army OD9.

My tuppence. Your mileage may vary and it's OK if it does.

Paul
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