Hi there

I've just bought Italeri's old kit "M3A1 White Staff Car" and I'd like to make a British version of it. I want to build it as a troop carrier, and when finished I intend to use it in a dio, depicting British soldiers shortly after the D-Day landings - perhaps a scene from Caen? I'm not sure yet...

Anyway; I've tried to google it and consulted my reference book (my only that is) "British and American Tanks of World War Two" (1969) which also has a chapter with softskins, halftracks and other kind of vehicles, regarding British versions of the M3A1. Neither google or my book has given me insight to the vehicle, so therefore I'd rather go to Armorama for advice and help.

Questions:
- Have any of you build the model in a British version and have some tips - fx. on replacing parts with am parts?

- What kind of closesupport weapons did it have in British service? .30, .50 or a Bren?

- What color should it be in (Normandy 1944)? I only use Valejo paint

- Any thing I should be aware of - regarding the model that is?

I hope you can help me.

Thanks in advance

Simon

HI Simon: I recall reading that the M3 series scout cars were superceded by other vehicles in British recon units in NW Europe. I think you'd only see it in auxillary units with Commonwealth troops. I think some were used by French recon units.

THe main use was in the Italian theatre and by the Soviets.

That being said, when operated by the British, it would have had .30s and.50s as the mounts were designed for these weapons. No need to get conversion mounts for British made MGs when the American ones were so plentiful.

Unless there was major overhaul, they'd be left in US Olive Drab. HTH

I'm not sure that M3A1s were used by Brit forces in NWE. The Brits preferred their armored cars

Hi Simon,

I've built this kit, it still turns out a nice vehicle despite its age. I have the old Italeria one and a new Zveda version that comes with the top still in the box.

The thing to replace is the jerry cans.

Re its service history ,I'm no expert but to the best of my knowledge it had been replaced as a scout car by the time they landed in NWE. OD would be the colour and I've seen photos of it being used to carry ammunition, tow trailers and the 6pl AT gun. It was I think also used a radio vehicle and run around by units that still had it. So maybe think Signals, RAMC or some type of QM vehicle.

The Italeri version doesn't have the top so you might get the best milage out of it by making it a Signals Vehicle. There's a new British Wirelesss Set coming out from Formations, which might give it a nice touch.

I'd be inclined to ditch the rear seating if your going to have it as some kind of fighting vehicle. Apart from being very small the seats would get in the way of anyone trying to operate the MGs - Don't know if this would be 'correct' but it would have been the logical thing to do.

Sorry I can be more precise, but these would be my thoughts.

Cheers

Al

British forces did use considerable numbers of M3a1 scout cars in NW Europe, but mostly as command vehicles with armoured car units, fitters vehicles for engineers and Reme, ambulances, and recce vehicles, see David Fletcher's, 'The Universal Tank' British Armour in the Second World War part2 HMSO 1993. Armament was usually a Bren, but as stated any of the American machine guns are possible too. There are pictures of Whites in Denmark in 1945 with the Royal Dragoons, in Copenhagen in Fletcher's 'British Tanks of ww2 2 Holland and Germany 1944/5 Concord 2001, maybe that could be an inspiration for you

One book I have on the Guards Armored Division shows a White being used as a medical vehicle. There is a painting showing it going through a Belgium town, with red crosses all over it, and the canvas top in place. That might be something interesting to do.

I am working on the kit now. Mine is the italeri version that has the photo of the completed model on the lid. Mine has extremely brittle plastic, several pieces have broken off in my hand when I was cutting them off the sprue, or they broke just from rattling around in the box. I'm going to use a cheap Eduard PE kit I picked up on sale.

The kit only has six seats in back, and they are very small. I dont' know if you could use any of them to put figures in. I test fitted the radio operator from the Tamiya Forced Recon Universal Carrier and the only seat he could fit in was the front right hand side one. Other seated figures I have were far too big for any of the seats.

I also have this kit in the "to do" pile. There is something attractive about the
little guy. Did find this:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.movieprops.nl/mv8/mv_main.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.movieprops.nl/mv8/m3scoutcar.htm&h=248&w=330&sz=23&tbnid=50zfCxwEEhs1WM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=114&hl=en&start=44&prev=/images%3Fq%3DM3A1%26start%3D40%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

It does mention the M3A1 in British service in several areas of combat.

The key to understanding the use of the M3A1 Scout Car in Commonwealth service is in knowing that this was called the Truck, 15 cwt, 4x4, Armoured, White (or something very close). It was a truck first and issued as such. The American half tracks were all Truck, 15 cwt, half-track and used similarly. I.e. as trucks.

In Italy they were seen in combat as APCs with the Motorised Battalions in Armoured Divisions. In NW Europe, they were replaced by {edit, I should have specified that they were replaced as APCs in NW Europe, not in the other roles}, first, Halftracks and later by C15TA armoured trucks. However, their main use was as a utility armoured vehicle, thus they showed up in almost every type of unit that might have need of an armoured transport.

Infantry and armoured units had them in the HQ sections for the commanders and as ambulances and fitters vehicles and, and, and...
Artillery units had them as Gun Position Officers charges, as OP vehicles, as Signals trucks, and, and, and...
Medical units used them as ambulances.
Police units used them as section hacks in combat zones.

Any place where a War Establishment had "truck,15cwt, 4x4" could have one of these instead of a softskin and frequently did in front line units.

The one thing that the Scout Car was almost never used for was ... Scouting. As was stated, in the Commonwealth, we preferred to use our wide range of purpose built Light Recce Cars, Scout Cars and Armoured Cars to perform that function.

Why the US never took to that doctrine has always been a bit of a mystery to me, actually.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Good overview of their role.

Cheers

Al

HI there
Thanks so much for your replies. They really help.

As a conclusion: It would'nt be a historic crime to use the M3A1 in a dio depicting British on the move in Normandy. Only decision now is to decide what unit it should be attached to. (The idea of a Signals vehicle...could be interesting.) So I thank You all so much for your help: Thank you

I'll keep an eye out for am-products and pics of the car. And yes, I know about the seats. I'll replace them with something else.

Again, thanks so much.

Simon

Hi Simon,

There are some good shots of the M3 in the link I just posted under 7,727 Reference Images - They were taken in Italy with the Polish Units but you might get some good ideas if have a browse through.

http://www.cultura.marche.it/cultura/mostraguerra/default_sik.asp?page=29&order=id%3F

Cheers

Al

I have the Zvedza kit. I want to do it in Canadian markings. Need to find some more reference material first which is rather difficult to come across.

Good thead.

Hi Simon,

Here's one I'm working on at the moment. It's getting a refurbishment and I'm awaitng the Formations Radios to come onto the market.

It will be the Signals Officers vehicle of 11 RHA, attached to 1 Armd DIv, N Africa 1942.



Sorry about the photo it's a bit in shadow.

Cheers

Al

Hi Jeff,

The Canadian Royal Artillery used the same AOS Red/over Blue as the British.

What location/unit are you thinking off for the vehicle and what period of the campaign? You could do a cool one of an CRA Anti Tank Unit towing a 6pdr!!!

Cheers

Al

Hi Al

I am not to picky on what unit or period of the campaign I would do this vehicle. If I can find some decent references I will go with what I can find.

The 6pdr would be very interesting but I didn't think the RCA used these vehicles to tow these guns? Would love to see some pics of that!

Thanks!

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Have a look at these

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.asam.co.uk/iml/ht139.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.asam.co.uk/mlcar.html&h=150&w=200&sz=5&tbnid=MrKdv26qK_jpXM:&tbnh=74&tbnw=99&hl=en&start=39&prev=/images%3Fq%3DM3%2BScout%2BCar%26start%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

If you try a google (images) there were quite a lot of pictures that might give you some ideas.

Cheers

Al

Hi there

Your model really looks good, Alan. It'll suit a NA dio nicely.

Thanks for your comments all, and the links. When I get time, I'll go them through for inspiration.

Thanks again for Your needful advice.

Simon

The 1st Polish Armoured Division used in in the Netherlands at the end of 1944. My father has a photo of himself as a young boy with a polish soldier, in the background there is a m3 scoutcar.

GJ

Hi Greet,

Did you get the link above to the Sikorski Museum in London?

There are lots of good photo's there of the Polish in Italy.

Cheers

Al

No, not quite. On the contrary, you can put an M3A1 in virtually any unit you like in Normandy, just don't have it as a front line _APC_ or scout. Just about any infantry regiment would likely have them, just not as lugging combat infantry _into_ the battle. As an ambulance, as the regimental commander's vehicle, as an Arty regiment's FOO charger, the M3A1 makes a perfect choice.

Paul