I’ve had this Dragon T-80 w/ERA kit for some time and decided to put it on the workbench. I know there are some issues with it and thought I’d better ask my armor brothers for some advice. I just got the Eduard’s T-80 MBT photo etched set (35 328) in the mail. Can someone recommend some building tips and photo reference sites for this model? I’ve run across some on the site but I’m trying to get as much as possible before I begin. Are there any other recommended photo etched sets or other upgrades? I know, it was a multi questioned posting. Thanks!

This really depends on what you wan out of the build.

The DML kit, while nice in its day, is just not very accurate. If you build it with what you have, Eduard PE and otherwise OOB, you will get a 4ft T-80...ie, it will look like a T-80 and can be ID' as such rather than as a T-72 etc.

But if you want a ACCURATE T-80, there is a lot of work that needs to be done depending on the version you want. I had a Modellers Helper for the T-80 on a webpage, but I took it down and I am currently gathering references to put it back up more accurately.

But, first, if you want a:

T-80b or -bv, you essentially have to work with the DML kits. The T-80bv with the Eduard PE is the best way to go, and I would leave it at that. While you could do quite a bit more to accurize, essentially in the end you will either have to do a LOT of work or else have a model with some good aspects and other parts that look kinda underdone. The basic T-80b kit from DML does not look correct for a T-80...I built one OOB and just could not be satisfied with it.

That said, sometime in the next 12 months SP Designs of the Ukraine (whom I sell kits for...shameless plug) will be coming out with a T-80b turret for the DML kit...this, along with the T-80 Roadwheels from SP Designs and the Eduard PE kit, should be a really good start. However, as noted by SP Desings owner Sergej, the DML kit will still have it's inherent dimensional flaws. This conversion will be for those who want to use their DML kits for something good. Not the ideal solution, but better than nothing.

As for a T-80U -UD -??, So far as I know only AEF Designs and SP Designs make any conversions. Based off the SKIF T-80UD kit, they accurize and improve what is basically a sound kit, but it lacks a lot of fine detail and finesse. However, AEF Designs is, as always, Caveat Emptor (buyer beware.) Some of there stuff (and customer service) is good, some is not.

There are quite a few T-80U series conversions, so follow the link for SP Designs T-80 Stuff

However, as you can see, a good, accurate T-80 will cost you $$$ and Time. It can also help you gain good skills either scratchbuilding, weathering, or workign with aftermarket.

Any questions, feel free to ask. I am slowly working on my T-80UD conversion...slowly.

As the other poster pointed out, the Dragon kit has problems because it was designed from plans derived from intelligence photos. The Soviets just weren't letting anybody get close to a T-80 when Dragon was designing their Soviet armor kits (and Dragon's misfortune was that we got all kinds of access to Russian military gear just after their put their kits on the market).
If you can live with the many dimensional and detail problems, the single biggest improvement you can make on any Dragon T-80 or T-72 is to replace the 125mm main gun, as the kit item is far too thick, and this is extremely noticeable, even from four feet away.

Jacques -
I really appreciate the great information on the T-80. I hope I didn’t waste my money on the photo etched set for this model. I have the Tamiya T72M1 and maybe should have started on that one and left the old T-80 on the shelf. I have a number of Dragon’s Soviet kits that I purchased years ago needing attention. I’ve mainly been on US armor and needed a change of pace. With that being said, I made the move to my CCCP shelf and pulled the T-80. I started to go with the BMP-1 or the T-72 but changed my mind. Also, with the need for a new compressor I turned to what I have left instead of purchasing a new model. That is a good point about improving my skills by practicing on this kit with the various techniques you mentioned. I want to get a hold of those TANK figures and include them with my model, I’m thinking now I should consider them on the T-72 and not the T-80. I would have liked to have seen a copy of your Modeler’s Help on the T-80 though. I’m now torn between building the thing or waiting until you get the upgrades from SP Designs. I do appreciate the feedback and all the help. Please keep me in the loop with those upgrades as well. Thanks again.

Gerald-
Thanks for the update on the main gun. I might have to consider the replace if I can find one at a low cost. Thanks again.

Well, all those conversions should pretty much be in stock...unless you want the T-80 "leningrad" with the BROD-M gear...that one is a big seller. :-)

Gary is right about the main gun. I hesitate to tell you to drop more $$$ or to spend lots of time correcting that only to have allt he other problems show up...a nice main gun with less detailed upper hull...then you go to that...then the track needs work...next thing you know, you are redoing the whole thing ala Gary. Just building the kit OOB with the PE set should be ok especially if you use it as a opportunity to improve your skills, I have seen a few early dragon kits with just PE added and a great paint job look stunning. So there are other ways around the problems than just throwing the kit in the trash!

Oh, and the tracks in the DML T-80 kit are too wide, so do not put the top run on (it is hidden anyhow) and things will be ok.

Be warned that Tamiya's T-72 also has some problems for a russian vehicle (front glacis) or as a T-72 (turret). There just does not seem to be a good answer!

However, Tamiya's T-55 is a great "beginers" kit for getting into "red" armor. Generally accurate unless you get into bolt-counting, no dimension or shape problems. A good kit. But let me guess...not on your shelf? Oh well...I know how you feel.

Hi Gary, I'm Jacques...(I'm just really tired guys, bear with me here...I was aiming for you though Gary, in reference to your T-62, but I can see I should have made my reference clearer.)

Yes, the MR stuff is/was available. Is it still available? I have heard it went OOP. It was also hard to find any info on the kits as well as the kits themselves.

Inquiring minds want to know... :-)

Well guys, thanks again for the advice. I think I'll work with what I have for now and when I'm ready for my next red fix I'll be calling.

Dan

Jacques-

So the Tamiya T-55 would be an accurate kit? Are there any others that you would recommend? I have a Dragon BMP-1, SA-9 Gaskin, Scud model besides the T-72 and T-80. After that I'm tapped out of CCCP armour. I have several leopards waiting in the wings as well. I checked out the T-55 and I'm interested. Sure, I might have to eat bread and water and face the wrath of my wife, but I might consider one. Thanks again,

Dan

Gary, thanks for the note on the MR stuff. I still heard a solid rumor that the company has folded, but I have not been able to confirm so it is still just a unsubstantiated rumor. (I know, I know, unsubstantiated rumors are a plaque...Just wnated to report it in case it might be true...no harm no foul). And thanks for the hint of Accurate Armour as a supplier of pieces...they have nice pictures of the parts (A change from other vendors).

However, nice as the wheel set is, I don't think they are worth the $25+ they cost here in the USA. I know AA is a bit cheaper, but only by a few dollars when you factor in shipping.

Also, the conversions are for DML's kits which are dimensionally inaccurate. Which means MR's products are inaccurate, and at a fairly high price! Now, I expect you to do a heck of a bang up job, (heck, you could probably McGuiver a awesome T-80 out of paperclips and chewing gum!) but for those of us who are only merely mortal the MR pieces will only dress up a incorrect kit, not correct it. The wheel set may be different, I have not measured them. Plus, your T-80 sounds like it is going to cost almost as much as the real deal!

SP Designs problems mainly come from the age of the wheels (they were Sergej's first T-80 conversion pieces) and also his casting ability. Not to excuse him in any way, but his ability can only go so far. Also, since you bought your wheelset he has remolded the wheels and has switched over to a better resin. The castings are probably only marginally beter than the ones you have, but they are far better than the DML ones.

I know I seem to be going on and on, but MR has really irritated me in the past. I have many of their conversions and all of them have dissappointed me for the $$ I have shelled out and there seems to be no recourse for problems. Maybe this should not be the place to go at it about them, but it tends to color my view of their products. Well, that and your opinion holds weight with me at least, so I want to make sure that Sergej is doing his best with SP Designs.

Sigh.

Boy Dan, I bet you never thought you would get this kind of response, eh? :-) As for your question, yes, the Tamiya T-55 would be my first pick for a first time "red" kit. It would be the easiest to build, and it will be the most accurate to boot, PE or not. However, your kit stash is not bad either.

The SA-9 is a nice little kit that really shines with a touch of research (internet) and the Eduard PE set. I would recomend this for your first detail enhancement kit.

The BMP-1 from Dragon is ok. PE will help, but there are a number of accuracy problems with this kit that would require a Gary level of fixing to make it all better. The Esci kit is actually marginally better! However, both kits tend to have nearly the same problems. This would mainly be a kit to have fun with either learning to convert to something else, or to practice painting.

The SCUD is one of my favorites though it is detail sparse. I have always liked the kit but I will admit that it really is missing a lot of detail. However, since you are just getting into it, I really recomend you just build it OOB and give it a great paint job. You will get the most enjoyment out of it that way, and only a few builders will note the missing detail. And yet again, the new eduard PE sets (interior and exterior) will add a lot of detail. This may also be a good build to just add the PE to.

The T-72 and T-80 are good kits to build, fix the small problems on, and practice doing a good paint job on. I know I tend to harp on the paint part of it, but nothing makes your heart sink like spending the big bucks on conversions and PE, doing all the hard work, and then getting a bad or (worse) boring paint job over all that hard work. Trust me, been there, done that. Very Very few will ever know how much work you have done on these major conversions or detailings unless you take COPIOUS amounts of photos. But if you can master good paint jobs, then hard work under the paint is better appreciated.

Well, my experience and advice anyhow! :-)

Now to race Gary to the finish line on a tricked out T-80 series tank.

Jacques

Thanks again for the great feedback. I was worried when I made the post that I wouldn't get anything. I checked and checked and then you and Gary came back with some great information. I really do appreciate the time and information you gave me. I'm sure I'll be tapping into your knowlege and experience again with my future "red" projects.

Dan

Not a problem...always a pleasure to help promote the "red" part of the hobby. Feel free to ask any more questions.

Jacques

Since SP Designs is considering to release a T-80B turret and hull set, would a T-80BV also be included in the plans?

Hey Tony, welcome on board.

My guess is that a T-80BV will be released if the T-80B sees the light of day. Sergej is currently doing some repairs to his domicile, including enlarging his work area, so things should pick up this fall as far as new kits coming out.

Personally, I wish Eduard would come out with a PE set for the mounting setup for the Kontact-1/3 ERA...all that thin metal without the bricks look cool. BTW, this is the thin metal plate setup that goes on top of the mounting "pegs" set in the turret. It looks like the ERA bricks slide onto them for the distinctive V shape on the front of the turret. Cool.

Here is a pick from off of the internet, source unknown of a T-72AV with the plates of which I speak:

Dan

Here are some good photo reference sites.

T-80B

http://svsm.org/gallery/T-80B

http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/armour/index.htm

http://www.alexfiles99.narod.ru/gallery/gallery.html


T-80BV

http://legion.wplus.net/expo/ser2002t.shtml

http://www.tanxheaven.com/referencepictures.htm

Jacques

A PE plate set would certainly add to realism, but for me, it would be extra work. As you have observed, I have been pretty patient about removing the excess resin by hand without the aid of any power tools.

I already got rid of the excess on the T-80UD m1985, T-64U, T-80UD m1991 Pakistan army and almost done on sanding the excess from the T-80UD m1991 Russian army. I intend to remove the excess off of the other three T-80 kits as well before i start building any of them.

Tony

Hey Tony,

yeah, tell me about sanding resin! :-) At least the pour spouts are getting smaller.

As for the PE, well, that was only a suggestion. Maybe for the criminally insane? I am surprised ABER has not come out with a working ERA PE set yet! :-)

Hi Jacques

Since you brought it up, as i have six of the SP Designs T-80 conversions, I noticed variations in the "molding technology" used. Some of the engine decks were entirely solid castings, while the others were hollow. This was the same methods displayed with the fuel and storage bins for the hull sides -some were hollow and some were solid molds. I am surprised that Sergej did not also make the turrets hollow/semi-hollow as well to save resin.

Tony

Yeah, Sergej's tech level is a bit lower/spotty. I too thought that the turrets should eb hollow to make them use less resin...He says that to make the rubber molds like that wears them out faster and makes them harder to use. Not that I can argue with him from here in MN...

However, he uses bad pours to fill in the large void spaces for things like turrets, so he does not waste resin. If you took a band saw and cut through a turret, you would probably find bits and pieces of other kits, so an extent. He is carefull that the fill does not degrade the primary pour, or all is lost.

As for the rest, I am not sure how his molds are set up, but I do know what you mean. His Pakistani T-80UD has a better detailed engine deck than his T-80UD russian sereis, although they are based off of each-other.

My guess is that as he updates his molds, he updates his masters and ther is overlap between older pieces and newer pieces. I see this as a good thing because most Garage manufacturers stop improving their masters as soon as they pour rubber molds. Sergej is willing to go back at it for kits he is already producing. Of course, that leaves things kinda...wierd.

I have been looking through my Eduard PE stuff and a fair amount of what is meant for the DML kits would work well on the Skif/SP Designs sets too. For example, the rear deck of the turbine T-80U screens are a exact fit for the PE screens from Eduard for the DML T-80B. The rear exhaust screen will not work (DML made it too wide) but the straps and other small details are nice.

And I have not done any measuring yet, but the Eduard PE set for the DML T-80UD (SMT M1989) may have a proper replacement set of screens for the rear deck of the SP Designs T-80UD series.

Now if only Eduard would do a nice ZOOM sereis just for SP Designs stuff. (Ok, it is a trick wish...no they will not. Sergej looked into it a few years ago. Things would have to be bought in much larger bulk than Sergej could ever afford or use. sigh.)

And, I did not know this until recently, Sergej's main group of customers is in...wait for it...Eastern Europe. Sales in North America in particular are poor compared to his sales across the pond, and access to kits is hard enough...not many can also go in for the PE let alone the accessories to build the kits with all the doo-dads. So he makes the conversions also for ease of use, even if they are a bit less than optimal.

Boy can I tell I am tired...blathering on and such...

I think I may get to work on my T-80 Conversion this week while i have some free time...maybe. Just about done with the T-62M m2005, you guys will like that!