Gretings all,

Here, the 2nd of my IG M4A4 Sherman Mk V's. This one has the Tamiya turret, Dragon Early Gun and mantel. Some things I did; added some welds (thanks Grumpy), some smoke launchers (thanks Ian and Pat), added some eye-loops (thanks David). Stowage is from AA as are the commanders turret hatch and periscope. I made some inserts for the idler wheels from millipit :-) :-) :-) , which thankfully are hidden by the mud although they give the impression that's needed. Crew man is from Resicast although I'm not that happy with him (the set were really for a Cromwell or Churchill and don't sit that well in Sherman's. This one is a bit more naked than it's mates. There are no bolt holes so don't look for them.

Comments and constructive stuff welcome. Hope you enjoy it.

Also just to prove that I do listen, well at least some of the time, I've posted a picture of the other two that I put in the RRB. I've re-worked the hull and added welds, move the applique armour to a very precice thumb width and a bit :-) :-) :-) and sort of sorted out the antenna. Some day when I get some decent crowbars I'll replace the ones on these.


M4A4 Sherman Mk V
2 Bn IG (Armd)
No 1 Sqn, 2 Tp - Caumont July 44
T212283









The last time you saw these guys they were chatting. Now I hope they are ready for battle

M4A4 Sherman Firefly VC
2nd Bn IG (Armd)
1 Sqn, 2 Tp - Caumont July 44
T212688



M4A4 Sherman Mk V
2nd Bn IG (Armd)
1 Sqn, 2 Tp - Caumont July 44
T147470



The Gang so far:



Thanks to all who gave feed back and advice, it's been a fun build so far.

Cheers

Al

Hello Alan,

Great work and nice detail. How about a couple of Stuarts to help complete the set.

Cheers
Kevin

HI McNeilly

That is realy a nice collection you have put up there. How did you make that smoke launcher?

Hi Alan nice work !It's the small differences between vehicles that make it work.cheers Pat

Hi Alan

Great work , I love the weathering that you have managed to keep it uniform on all 3 or your Shermans ( i can never repeat the same weathering twice ) do you intend to put them al in a dio at some point ?

I have got to build me a "normal" Sherman to go with my Firefly , if I ever get the parts together I will be looking to you for advice

BTW are you going for a whole armoured division ????

Ian

Greetings all,

Kevin, yes a Stuart M5A1 will join them, then it's on to the buildings for the dio. LOL, LOL.

Daniel, the smoke launchers were made from 2 x .303 rifles and two tubes from some old Italeri mortars linked together. A small shaped plate joings them together and attaches to the side of the turret. (scrap tank parts and a bit of cutting) The set on the bottom Mk V are from the AFV Stuart (so no work there) and the set on the top Mk V are scratched.

Pat, thanks for you comments. Building a troop of tanks, trying to keep some difference and interest in them, yet still have the cohesion between the troop took a little bit of thought. When the tank names go on that will help to individualise them as well.

Glad you enjoyed them and thanks for your comments.

Cheers

Al

REALLY nice paint/weathering on all three. I mean it, really quite nice, better than my efforts. Just a couple of things to note:

1. Inside the blue squadron signs on the sides of the tank, the numbers should be white.

2. Same number should be repeated on the back of the tank turret stowage box.

3. Those DML side applique plates are noticeably too small and are better replaced by Italeri or Tamiya ones, which are truer to scale. It's most noticeable on the ones furthest forward.

4. If these tanks will be depicted in motion in your upcoming dio, the drivers have to be able to see! Open up some of those periscope covers.

5. The sandshield strips should have holes instead of bolts if the sandshields themselves are not fitted. I replaced the kit ones with styrene strip with holes drilled accordingly.

6. Many would argue that the firefly should be a different shade of green than the other two. As they were rebuilt in the UK, they'd also be repainted in British Scc No. 15 Olive Drab, rather than the U.S. Olive Drab, which is the color the Sherman V's were.

These are all minor nitpicks, really. The kits really do look awesome. What's the time frame to be depicted by the dio, and how big will it be? I've just finished a Hell's Highway scene with Universal carrier and Firefly, and the thing is 18" by 12" with an American Jeep and 19 total figs. Your's will be quite large, I assume. Good luck with the rest of it.

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your feedback.

Re the Squadron signs. To the best of my knowledge the number inside should represent the Squadron and it would be in the same colour as the Squadron Sign, I stand to be corrected, but that's what it says in the Offical History.

The number shown on the rear of the bins shows the vehicle call sign, so in this case it would be 1 Sqn, 2 Tp, Tank No; ie 12 A, 12 B, 12 C, 12 D. To the best of my knowledge the has been the Battalion marking system since WW2.

Re the applique armour and side skirts, this is really a case of where do you stop, so at this point they are what they are warts and all. The Tamiya hull was used for other purposes so now spare side plates there.

The tanks will be in an advance to contact situation therefore only the Commander is visible, there is no way to close the front hatches if the gun is depressed, so drivers etc had to batten down sooner or later.

As you'll notice all the vehicles are darker than the normal OD, because real vehicles that have been into battle don't look clean and pretty, they look much darker in places and worn in others. Whether or not the Firefly should be a slightly different colour really depends what colour of paint was in the can.

Re the dio, I don't have a time frame on it. Next is the Stuart, and the buildings and then it's onto the ground work .

Thanks for the feedback, I'd be interested to see your 'Hell Highway' project sound very interesting.

Cheers

Al

Gday Al
Looking the goods mate
Love the spare wheel set up on the glacis of the first M4A4 pic...
The running gear all looks great, and I remember having milliputted the inside of the idlers myself in the past....
What was the doctrine on tow cables? Were they all supposed to have them?
Cheers
Brad

Hi Brad,

The offical stowage diagram for the Mk V shows that they had a towing cable down the LHS. This is also common on most of the pictures I've looked at. There is one on the 1st Mk V but I need to get some more hooks/clamps for the other two, just one more wee part to add to the long list LOL, LOL

The longer the campaign went on the more stuff started to get hung on them, either as stowage or as added protection. The additional road wheel on the LHS seems to have been a standard fixture on the Micks tanks. As well as the offical stowage each unit probably had it's own SOP. Certainely in the later campaigns there were cases of turrets jamming due to excess liberated gear and stuff that got caught up in them.

Thanks for your comments.

Cheers

Al

Al! looking bloody good mate!

Al,

I understand what you mean about "where do you stop". Sooner or later you have to declare a project done, and I think even the best modellers leave something undone or a corner cut.

Regarding the numbers inside the triangles, I just look in the Concord books by Fletcher British Tanks of WW2 Vol 1 and 2....the numbers inside the triangles are plainly MUCH lighter in color than the triangles themselves. The triangles being a medium to light blue, the numbers must be white.

And the research I did said that the same number should be on the back of the turret. But that was internet research on another site that could well be wrong.

I didn't mean the hatches themselves should be open. Rather, the periscopes on the hatches. All are closed. Which means the drivers would be driving blind. I carefully sliced mine off and replaced with Custom Dioramics open periscopes on the firefly, and did homemade ones on a Sherman V I did once.

Regarding colors, I don't get too hung up on this myself. I painted my Sherman V Tamiya OD and my firefly Model Master Dark green, and after weathering they are very close in color. Most say that Scc 15 faded to a greener color than US OD, which faded to more in the brown shades. Like I said, I wouldn't make a big deal of it, except that, since they'll all be together, someone will make a stink over it. I agree with you though, the dirtier and dustier, the better. COLOR photos of WW2 tanks I've seen show a lot more dust, dirt, and grime (and less in the way of deep scratches and chips) than most modellers seem to depict. Sort of a matter of taste I guess.

All that said, I also notice the little things you did well, like the placement of the spare wheel on the upper left of the glacis, VERY common for Irish Guards tanks. Overall, excellent work I'd say.

Morning Robert,

As you know British Army markings are a bit of a minefield. Is the picture in the Concord book of an Irish Guards Tank? Of all the photos I've looked at there is only one where it might be interpreted that there is a white 2 inside the St Patricks Blue Triangle. Personally, this looks more like a question/chalk mark, or some dried drit and why a white 2 would be on a 1 Squadron vehicle beats me.

There is a case where one CO painted his tactical numbers in Purple as it happend to be his favourite colour.

There are few photos around showing the tactical marking clearly. However, in the book The Second Troop by Lt GNR Whitfield, there is a picture of a 3 Sqn Tank which shows the round with what looks like the number 3 inside. Although black and white, there is no difference in the paint colour. In the 'Armoured Micks' there are photographs of the vehicles at the end of the war which show the Squadron signs clearly and these are empty of any other marking. So, unless I can see photographic eveidence to the contrary I'll stick with what I have, I may even remove the 1

The vehicle number/call sign is a cloudy area as no decent photographs of the rear of the bins exist and my assumption is drawn both from personal experience and contact with various ex Micks from the 2nd Bn, who are still alive.

Re the periscope for the drivers to see through. Understand what you mean now. I always thought that the raised area on the outside of the hatches was supposed to represent the periscope top, be it all a poor one.
I'll look into that a bit more, wouldn't be very realistic if they couldn't see where they were going and hadn't been mentioned before LOL, LOL.

Re the colour it might have some relevance if I was trying to show a brand new perfect vehicle but is really in MHO irrelavent here.

If you interested in the 'Micks' then two books I woulkd recommend are 'The History of the Irish Guards in the Scond World War' by Desmond Fitzgerald and the anathology 'The Armoured Micks' by Capt V Taylor and Capt S Faris. Also if you like I have a full listing of all vehicles, crews etc that are known to have served in NWE with the 2nd Bn.

Thanks for your input, there is always more stuff to learn about Shermans



Cheers

Al

Al,

Looks like you've done more/better research than me, so I'll take your word for it on the various markings issues, especially if you're chatting it up with veterans.

I agree, with Shermans, ALWAYS more to learn. Just when you think you have it all down, some new thing just blows it all out of the water.

You can see both of the dios I've made so far over on Missing Links in the Constructive Comments section, both on the current page 1. Just look for my name, Rob Galassi. In the meantime, I'll try to find the photos I was talking about in those books, just for the heck of it. Perhaps you can straighten out what seems to be partial knowledge on my part (nothing more dangerous than a little knowledge!).

Rob

Hi Robert,

You basic dio ideas and layout look quite good. On the Market Garden one I'd be inclined to change the angle of the jeep a bit, have it sitting half off/on the road.

Your builds look very clean. That might be the photographs but the road ways and buildings need more dust and rubble. Have you tied using any Mig pigments? Good for weathering you vehicles and adding some wear to the soldiers kit. If you add some more dust and small bits of grit and stones it will help them a lot. Don't be afraid to run some washes over the buildings. Grubby is good LOL, LOL.

I couldn't see a good photo of your open vision ports but as I said I'll look into that.

Remember there will be a lot of variation between individual unit markings despite what was 'The Official' layout. Signs, names, numbers were often just chalked on or not added at all or only apply to a specific moment in time.

Cheers

Al

Al,

Here's what I've found markings-wise:

1. In Fletcher's Concord Vol 1 book, page 43, there's a 2 inside the triangle, noticeably lighter in shade than the triangle itself. This may be the pic you mentioned.

2. Page 70, a 4 inside the triangle, which looks, to my eye, lighter in shade. Though you can't for sure tell it's an Irish Guards tank, the photo of a universal carrier below with the markings visible, taken in obviously the same location, would seem to confirm it.

3. Page 45 of Tim Saunders "Nijmegan", part of the Battleground Europe series, shows what he says is a Grenadier guards (but I believe is an Irish guards, since the Gren Guards tended to use larger two digit numbers on the sides of their tanks OUTSIDE the squadron sign) shows a triangle with a 4.

4. The squadron sign in 1-3 above also seems to filled with black.

5. Info I have says that the geometric sign represents the squadron, and the number inside that represents the troop within the squadron. So a tank with a triangle with a 4 inside would be 4th troop of A squadron. So that might explain part of your confusion about why a 2 would be inside a triangle, but would also suggest that I'm wrong about what would be on the back of the turret, as seemingly that should be callsign.

In the end, your kits look really nice. Thanks for the feedback on the dios....as you might have read on ML in my intro, if you will, many of the issues were things I was already aware of. I think they're okay for first efforts, but there's always room (in my case, plenty) for improvement.

Rob

Hi Robert,

Thanks for that, it's quite possible the tp number may have been included, it will be an easy fix to add a little black square with a 2 in it if necessary.

None of the photos of the 'clean' tanks show this marking, just the Squadron sign, I'll have a look on IWM and see if anything like that turns up.

The Grenadiers would have marked theirs diffferently, it was very much an individual unit thing.

The Geometric signs do represnet the Squadrons:

Diamond - HQ Sqn
Triangle - 1 or A Sqn
Square - 2 or B Sqn
Round -3 or C Sqn

The colour shows the seniority of the unit:

Red - Senior Armoured Regiments
Yellow - Second Senior Armoured Regiments
Bule - Junior Armoured Regiments
White - Unbrigaded Armoured Units.

Some units carried numbers within the signs which denoted individual tanks. They may well have used a similar system to indentify tanks within a troop.

Cheers

Al

Hi Karl,

Sorry for the delay in replying. Thanks for your comments and thanks to all who responded;

Cheers Guys - My Shermans can now see :-) :-) :-)



Al

Great work Alan , did it involve much in the way of surgery and what did you use to replicate the periscopes ?

Ian

Hi Ian,

I used some Formations stuff I had from a turret I decided not to use so it was fairly painless. If I was doing them fresh I might approach it from a different angle.

I also used some Dragon ones I cut down from the Firefly turrets periscopes which althouh a little bigger I think worked out OK.

Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers

Al

Thanks Alan

Hmmm Ive got a few spare periscopes in the spares box , thanks for the heads up Alan


Ian