Panzer IV J's in Normandy - Falaise Pocket?
New Hampshire, United States
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 03:11 AM UTC
Does somebody know if the Waffen SS or the Warmacht had Panzer IV J's in Normandy and or the Falaise Pocket? If so, which Divisions?
Worse case senario if I have the Revell of Germany Panzer IV J, what would I have to do to back date this kit to an H?
So far what I have done to the exterior is that I have put the Zimmerite and the sheet metal side skirts and turret skirts on it so far.
I like the Waffen SS and the Warmacht, also the areas of the Falaies Pocket and Normandy. Can someone please help a very frusturated modeller?
"On the 8th day God created RANGERS, and the gates of hell where opened"
"RANGERS, LEAD THE WAY, ALL THE WAY!"
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 04:59 AM UTC
In June of 1944, Ausf J, the final variant of Panzerkampfwagen IV tank family entered production as a replacement for Ausf H (10 Serie BW). Its production did not cease until March 1945 with 2970 produced solely by Nibelungenwerke and in small number by Vomag. This medium tank received a designation of Sd.Kfz.161/2. Chassis numbers for Ausf J were approx.86394 to 86573 and unknown to approx.89541.
Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf J of 111th Panzer Brigade, 2111th Panzer Abteilung, Staff Company, Lorraine, France in September of 1944.
Also 12 SS-PzDiv Hitlerjugend. Normandy 1944 I believe in and around Caen.
Details can be found in Squadrn/signal Pz-IV in action page number 48 which shows a Pz-IVJ painted RAL 7028 as a base, and oversprayed in camo colours: RAL 6003 and RAL 8017 with turret number 635. Nicknamed paula.
http://www.forces70.freeserve.co.uk/Waffen%20SS%20Text+Images/12%20ss.htmMartin,
Martinus Incontinentius Maximus
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 05:01 AM UTC
Martin,
Martinus Incontinentius Maximus
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 07:58 AM UTC
Hi Wolf ...Das Riech had some panzer IV's just exactly like the one you have built ..There is a picture that is pretty well known of a Sherman passing 2 J's on the side of the road near St.Lo...I am looking at this picture on page 73 of SS Armor from Squadron/Signal pub. but I'm sure I have seen it around in other books too....What is cool is you can actually see the Das Riech divisional sign on the back of the vehicle ,which is rare at this stage of the war...
hth
Richard
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 09:33 AM UTC
Gentlemen, I know wolf - leader has been working hard on his model and he will be entering it in competition. Now, I may be wrong here, BUT I also have two book's ( The Panzer's & The Battle of Normandy & SS Armor ) and they each have the photo that Bear mention's of the Das Reich Pz.IV Ausf J's, BUT - I SINCERELY HAVE MY DOUBT'S THAT THESE ARE " J's " FOR TWO REASONS:
1. - The Ausf J had only 3 RETURN ROLLERS .. ..... as all the previous Pz IV ausfuhrungs and the two in the photograph have 4.
2. - The two in the photo also have HORIZONTAL EXHAUST MUFFLERS another common feature in earlier ausfuhrungs ............The Ausf J had VERTICAL EXHAUST MUFFLERS
Now the question here is - " Well screamingeagle, how could 2 book's be wrong and you be right ? " .... I just say to you all that from what I know of the Ausf J these were just 2 features out of about 6 other's that were changed in production of the " J " from the other variant's. So seeing that there is not 1 but 2 discrepencies with the tank's in the photo and the most common and most plentiful Pz.IV in Normandy was the Ausf H ( over 700 ) that would be my opinion of what is being seen in the photo. And photo captions are known to be referenced wrong by some authors. I KNOW FOR MYSELF I WOULD WANT MORE DEFINITIVE PROOF OF THEM BEING J's.
( I just wish I could get a look at the turret side's )
ALSO, the production of 2,970 Ausf J's is wrong ! There were only 1,758 produced plus the the Pz. IV chassis that were used for the Brummbar &Pz.IV/70 ( A )
BE VERY CAREFUL WOLF-LEADER
- ralph
"COURAGE IS NOT THE ABSENCE OF FEAR ... IT IS THE WILLINGNESS TO WALK THROUGH IT."
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:28 AM UTC
My answer to the above would be that a number of Ausf H versions were rebuilt and renamed J. These had the electric turret apparatus removed and replaced with extra fuel cell and various items. This I believe was in order to update them for recon and command use.
There are several differences on the Panzer IV Ausf. J. The earlier production Ausf. J has the large cylindrical exhaust muffler and the skirt hanging rails associated with the solid plate Shurtzen. It also has FOUR return rollers and fuel filler caps on both sides of the chassis. It also sports crew escape hatches on the turret, thickened turret roof, muzzle break and OVM stowage.
It is only as production increased that they were built with THREE return rollers.And then the deletion of turret visor and pistol ports, installation of Pilze 2-ton crane mount sockets, introduction of Flammentoeter mufflers, conversion from plate Schurzen to wire-mesh, installation of Naehverteidigungswaffe close defence system and ceasing application of Zimmerit paste. In addition to new modifications, numerous changes made to Ausf G and H were also applied to Ausf J.
As you can see, as long as an early mode J is built he should have no problem!
Martin,
Martinus Incontinentius Maximus
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:35 AM UTC
Screamingeagle, I'm afraid I have to contradict you on a couple of points.
Quoted Text
1. - The Ausf J had only 3 RETURN ROLLERS .. .....
Quoted Text
............The Ausf J had VERTICAL EXHAUST MUFFLERS
On the last page of the Squadron/Signal Panzer IV in action there is a photo of two early J's with both the horizontal muffler and four return rollers. They are certainly
not H's, as they also lack the small auxiliary muffler. The features you mentioned were, however, found on the
late production models along with the revised towing brackets formed from extensions of the hull side plates (like those found on late Pz III and Stug III's).
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
My answer to the above would be that a number of Ausf H versions were rebuilt and renamed J. These had the electric turret apparatus removed and replaced with extra fuel cell and various items. This I believe was in order to update them for recon and command use.
There are several differences on the Panzer IV Ausf. J. The earlier production Ausf. J has the large cylindrical exhaust muffler and the skirt hanging rails associated with the solid plate Shurtzen. It also has FOUR return rollers and fuel filler caps on both sides of the chassis. It also sports crew escape hatches on the turret, thickened turret roof, muzzle break and OVM stowage.
It is only as production increased that they were built with THREE return rollers.And then the deletion of turret visor and pistol ports, installation of Pilze 2-ton crane mount sockets, introduction of Flammentoeter mufflers, conversion from plate Schurzen to wire-mesh, installation of Naehverteidigungswaffe close defence system and ceasing application of Zimmerit paste. In addition to new modifications, numerous changes made to Ausf G and H were also applied to Ausf J.
As you can see, as long as an early mode J is built he should have no problem!
Hey Martin, VERY KOOL ............... GREAT INFO, and thanks for the clear-up. " I did say I could be wrong " ( lol ).
I like to know what references your using for this info, please ?I would like to update my Panzer Reference Files.
The other thing that had my doubt's was that even though SS Armor is a good book, there are know to be a few captioned photo's in it that have error's to there reference.
However, the info you used from Achtung Panzer Website on the production count is incorrect. I have always been careful with some of AP's ref's, but generally they are a decent source of general information.
- ralph
"COURAGE IS NOT THE ABSENCE OF FEAR ... IT IS THE WILLINGNESS TO WALK THROUGH IT."
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 02:30 PM UTC
A little off this thread, but, does anyone know what type Panzer IV's were used in Pontfaroy France and what divisions they were from?
Thanks in advance.
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 02:31 PM UTC
Hi Ralph ...The only thing that can really tell you if it is an early J from a late H is that small muffler on the back ....The rest all changed during the production run....From the picture I mentioned you can really see that the muffler is not present ...For more info on this you can see Actung Panzer #3 on the Panzer IV ...You are completly right about the changes you mentioned they all did become part of what we know as a J.
Richard
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Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 09:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Ralph ...The only thing that can really tell you if it is an early J from a late H is that small muffler on the back ....The rest all changed during the production run....From the picture I mentioned you can really see that the muffler is not present ...For more info on this you can see Actung Panzer #3 on the Panzer IV ...You are completly right about the changes you mentioned they all did become part of what we know as a J.
Richard
Hi Richard, actually .... and I'm not trying to discredit you, but I have that one photo of the M4's
moving past the 2 Das Reich tanks also, but I have it in 3 different book's, and 3 different size photo's and if you look at them with a "power lense "
you will be able to notice the "cylindrical " end of what is the HORIZONTAL EXHAUST MUFFLER ( Trust me it's there on both of them ).
Now Martin mentioned that the EARLY Ausf J's still had the HORIZONTAL EXHAUST's and the 4 return roller's ....................
But as you can see I asked him for his reference's on this info and until I know what his references were of this proof ............I still hold to my theory that they are H's ( regardless of what the book's say ) because my records give ref's to the FULL PRODUCTION of Ausf J's having VERTICAL MUFF's & 3 RR. ... I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I'M GOING TO BE UPDATING MY RECORDS WITH OFFICIAL INFO IF IT GOES AGAINST WHAT I HAVE. ( I think anyone else would ask of the same ).
- ralph
"COURAGE IS NOT THE ABSENCE OF FEAR ... IT IS THE WILLINGNESS TO WALK THROUGH IT."
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 01:45 AM UTC
for your information:
achtungpanzer.com
panzer IV universe
afv interiors
ww11 vehicles .com
To name but a few of my resources pooled together to get an accurate picture. The information I have provided is CORRECT and available for all to view. If there is any doubt as to it's authenticity (which I very much doubt) might I suggest that you take it up with the various authors. I have not only taken the time to find this information, but have posted it for the benefit of this sites users. If it takes time for me to respond to individual queries i apologize, but you must remember the time difference between the UK and US!
I would remind all that this is a help forum and any information posted here is for the good of the topic creator, in this case, wolf-leader. He, as it happens, has always been happy with the information I have provided.
Martin,
Martinus Incontinentius Maximus
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 05:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I would remind all that this is a help forum and any information posted here is for the good of the topic creator, in this case, wolf-leader. He, as it happens, has always been happy with the information I have provided.
Woe - woe - woe ! ............. Martin, I didn't mean do get you in a "huff ". And yes information is posted for the good of the topic creator and other's as well
and I have every right in this world to give reason for debate and let the modeler see that's their is legitimate grounds for such a debate. It's not as if this was done blindly. .............. As your other quote of " taking it up with the authors ":
I have already put the "wheel's in motion " in regards to this BEFORE I seen your reply and I am waiting for a respone as we speakI NEVER SAID YOU WERE WRONG .................... I WANT SOME BACK-UP, that's all !
- ralph
"COURAGE IS NOT THE ABSENCE OF FEAR ... IT IS THE WILLINGNESS TO WALK THROUGH IT."
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 07:56 AM UTC
That's fine, no offence taken. I didn't mean to appear that I had taken umbridge to your last post.
I simply mean, that if you need to have further evidence then fine. Take it to those who wrote the article for further information.
NO worries mate!
Martin,
Martinus Incontinentius Maximus
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 08:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
That's fine, no offence taken. NO worries mate!
"Ok ..... that's kool ! "
- ralph
"COURAGE IS NOT THE ABSENCE OF FEAR ... IT IS THE WILLINGNESS TO WALK THROUGH IT."
Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 02:17 PM UTC
HI Ralph ..We're not talking about the same muffler....There is the round cylinder muffler that was later changed to the vertical pipes ,but beside that muffler, on the left hand side when you are looking at the vehicle from behind...You will notice that the small muffler for the turret traverse system is no longer there because one of the main differences between the H and the J's was that the turret was now manually turned ...so no more motor ...no more muffler. We seem to not be talking about the same thing here...Look at other pictures of H's you'll see a square box shaped muffler ..this is what is no longer there..If you take tamiya's J ..it comes with ciylinder muffler and 4 return rollers and it is a J . Sorry I didn't answer before now, it might have saved a few ruffled feathers...lol
Richard
P.S. Desert I think the picture you put up is an H because you can see the air filter on the left hand side fender when looking at it from the front ...Never saw them on J's ..But I could be wrong ...lol What do you think ??
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 02:59 PM UTC
Sorry Bear can't see it.......must be my eyes. If it's there you could be right at that!
Cheers
Martin,
Martinus Incontinentius Maximus
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 08:07 PM UTC
WELL I'LL BE A ............$$%%^^$ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.......bear " thanks a million !!!! " You just cleared a lot up for me. " WHAT A DAMN BLIND IDIOT I AM TO NOT NOTICE THIS WAS MISSING " ... Boy, oh boy I must be a fool !
AND NOW " TO BITE THE BITTER BULLET. "
Martin, the ref's were 100% correct as were you ............ and I was WRONG for still having doubt's and not taking in a full visual study of the Ausf J 's missing features compared to the other ausfuhrungs. Richard's input was key ........DEFINITELY AN AUSF J. And to Wolf- leader I hope you can see why I had my doubt's and had NO SUCH INTENTION'S TO STEER YOU WRONG. I USUALLY DON'T MAKE MANY MISTAKE'S - BUT IF I DO, WILL GLADLY ADMIT TO IT - APOLOGIES TO ALL ! OH MY GOD ......................... the author !
( sorry guy's gotta go - I have to get an email out QUICKLY ! )
"COURAGE IS NOT THE ABSENCE OF FEAR ... IT IS THE WILLINGNESS TO WALK THROUGH IT."
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Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 08:11 PM UTC
I truly enjoy reading this little "argument" thingy among very professional and knowledgable modellers!!! Good work, and cleared a lot of my own questions.
Ralph, Martin, and Bear all need to be compliments on their research, open mindness!!!!
Bravo!!! Bravo!!!!!
or to use a Pig thingy. Oink Fluvian Oink!!!!!! #:-)
Dave O'Mally aka Davidus ArwenIsMineus Pig No. 2, Da Jackel
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S
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 04:29 AM UTC
Hey Screaming Eagle and Desert fox,
no fighting now. This may help you guys. The Revell of Germany Panzer IV J kit that I have has 4 small wheels on top and 4 larger wheels on the bottom. Also it has the single horizontal exhaust pipe. Does this help any?
"On the 8th day God created RANGERS, and the gates of hell where opened"
"RANGERS, LEAD THE WAY, ALL THE WAY!"
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 04:58 AM UTC
Screaming eagle, you're quite alright! Let's forget it now. I have been known to make mistakes, (though not many hehehehehe kidding!).
Anyway.......now that's sorted out. Cheers all!
Martin,
Martinus Incontinentius Maximus
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 07:25 AM UTC
Hey this was fun!!...These are the kinds of things that are fun to argue about over a beer....We can't always be right ...I remember Ralph putting me straight on Shermans in the Ardennes ..This is what the forums are for....If we don't speak up when we think we are right ,then nothing much would go on here! Hope we can really all get together around a table for that beer sometime!! Till then well this will have to do...
Richard
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 09:27 AM UTC
OK let me try to figure this out. The Early Panzer IV J's had 4 return rollers [the top wheels] and a horizontal exhuast pipe, correct?
Now that we figured this out WHICH Wermarcht or Waffen SS Panzer Divisions was in the Falaise Pocket?
Do I understand that the Falaise Pocket was in the early 1944?
If correct, then the early Panzer IV J's were there.
I just need now to find out which Wermarcht or Waffen SS Panzer Divisions where there?
"On the 8th day God created RANGERS, and the gates of hell where opened"
"RANGERS, LEAD THE WAY, ALL THE WAY!"
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 09:44 AM UTC
The ones that I remember are 1st SS-2nd-9th-116th.
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Posted: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 10:26 AM UTC
All the units that fought in Normandy were being squeezed together through the pocket ...The ones that I know to have had J's are 12th SS ,2 SS ,1st SS.,( maybe the 9th SSand 10thSS I know they had stugs too)as for the army units I'm not sure which ones had J's but if you can get your hands on Armes Militaira magazine #46 La Poche de Falaise there are a few pictures of destroyed IV j's along the road..can't see what unit they are from but the numbers are 7+23 on the turret armor...there is another picture with lots of panthers and PzrIV's being collected up in a field...well worth buying even if you don't read french...some great pictures..
Richard
