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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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LVT (A) 1 - color ref. needed
houborg
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Sonderjylland, Denmark
Joined: January 31, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 08:18 PM UTC
Hi all,

I have bought the Italeri "Alligator" and have been searching the net for colr references without much luck.
I have seen other builds in different colors ranging from blueish to OD - what color was the most commonly used in the pacific? I guess no Alligators were used in europe during WW2 -correct?

Best regards
Morten
BobCard
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Florida, United States
Joined: August 09, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 10:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi all,

I have bought the Italeri "Alligator" and have been searching the net for colr references without much luck.
I have seen other builds in different colors ranging from blueish to OD - what color was the most commonly used in the pacific? I guess no Alligators were used in europe during WW2 -correct?

Best regards
Morten



Best place to start would be here (LINK) Hard Corps Models

Look through the site, they have alot of great info and some great reference items and books.

If you need specific information I can try and help but I need to know where and when. Alot of members have some great info and I'm sure they will add in when they get the chance.

Bob
djohannsen
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Virginia, United States
Joined: June 24, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text


I have seen other builds in different colors ranging from blueish to OD - what color was the most commonly used in the pacific?



It depends on when, where, and by whom the LVT was used. In the early campaigns (at least until the Guam landing) the LVT were blue (at least the Marine LVT, the Army may always have been OD?). At Iwo Jima, I believe they may have been hard edge three-color. At Okinawa I believe OD. The use of colored stripes to denote landing beaches, the color of the tactical markings, the type of MG mounts in the tubs, etc all depended on the time and place. So, if you let us know what service and what campaign you want to depict, I can dig through my notes and perhaps give you more information.


Dave
houborg
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Sonderjylland, Denmark
Joined: January 31, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 01:58 PM UTC
Hi Bob and Dave,

Thank you very much for your offered help.

I would like to depict "the bloody Trail" 1944 at Peleliu as it hits the beach and will be adding Aber exterior PE, and perhaps interior - but if you say that a beach approach was always conducted "hull down" then I wouldnt bother with exterior but focus on the .30 cal´s, sandbags, markings from hardcoprs models etc..

looking forward to your comment.

Best regards
Morten
SGTJKJ
#041
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Kobenhavn, Denmark
Joined: July 20, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 02:05 PM UTC
Then you should go with the three colour hard edge camo - sometimes with a thin black/dark brown line seperating the colours. Sort of the same principle as the early WWII French camouflage. To see the exact patterns I would recommend Squadron/Signal LVT in action. It is a cheap book and gives some good information on the camouflage and markings.

Markings as previously stated by Djohannsen.

God arbejdslyst!
houborg
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Sonderjylland, Denmark
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Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 02:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Then you should go with the three colour hard edge camo - sometimes with a thin black/dark brown line seperating the colours. Sort of the same principle as the early WWII French camouflage. To see the exact patterns I would recommend Squadron/Signal LVT in action. It is a cheap book and gives some good information on the camouflage and markings.

Markings as previously stated by Djohannsen.

God arbejdslyst!



Hi Jesper,

- soory I was editing my message as you answered. I changed the vehicle to depict, but I will pick up the book as suggested.

Tak for hjælpen.

Morten
BobCard
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Florida, United States
Joined: August 09, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 07:59 PM UTC
Don't know how much help your looking for but here is a photo of the "Bloody Trail" just off the beach.


For some excellent info the site I recommended, Hard Corps Models, has some perfect items for you, they have a more realistic set of decals, or dry transfers for this model and some excellent books just on this type of amphib. If you purchase the dry transfers it comes with directions on placement and has painting suggestions. The books get alot more specific and I recommend them for conversion info and detailed specifics for the LVT (A) 1.

If you plan on staying in the WWII PTO modeling area, I highly recommend these books, if not maybe I can help with some other items that will help with this model.
Bob
houborg
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Sonderjylland, Denmark
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Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 01:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Don't know how much help your looking for but here is a photo of the "Bloody Trail" just off the beach.


For some excellent info the site I recommended, Hard Corps Models, has some perfect items for you, they have a more realistic set of decals, or dry transfers for this model and some excellent books just on this type of amphib. If you purchase the dry transfers it comes with directions on placement and has painting suggestions. The books get alot more specific and I recommend them for conversion info and detailed specifics for the LVT (A) 1.

If you plan on staying in the WWII PTO modeling area, I highly recommend these books, if not maybe I can help with some other items that will help with this model.
Bob


Hi Bob,
Thank you very much for offering your help - It will be needed, I think.
I will for sure pick up the Hard Corps decals - but not the tracks (I´ll rather buy a house or something usefull at that price :-) )
BTW - whats the story with that funny looking antenna on the Alligator in your picture??
As I take your answer I should buy the decals to see the color of the "bloody Trail" which I will do, but it looks kinda OD from the picture doesnt it??

Best regards
Morten
BobCard
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 03:41 AM UTC
Morten
I know what you mean about the tracks, I can't spend that much and I love this stuff. Later tonight I'll email you some items I think you might like.
The antenna was either knocked over by a Marine or knicked by a round and fell over. This is a really good story concerning this LVT, I've been planning on doing a diorama of this picture but I'm still trying to get all the guys together, I've counted 24, not counting the rest of the guys that should be there. Also not counting the Japanese in the 3 emplacements in the photo, (probably dead). I suppose I should also say that the photo is cropped and I'll email you the full version.
Later on,
Bob
djohannsen
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Virginia, United States
Joined: June 24, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 05:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text


I would like to depict "the bloody Trail" 1944 at Peleliu as it hits the beach...



Morten:

It sounds like you're in good hands with all the advice that you've gotten. People have made some good recommendations to you for books. I would add that Concord's "US Amtracs and Amphibians at War 1941-45" is a great source of photos and has some useful color plates (and can be gotten cheaply at eBay). Especially interesting is that in this book you can see just how much latitude that subordinate units had in painting their vehicles (the Marines have always encouraged subordinate initiative). Just in the photos of Peleliu you'll see OD, but also some quite curious camo schemes (including a famous photo of something that can only be described as a psychadelic application of green over the original blue, leaving a tiger-stripe'esque appearance).

Another very useful book is Harper's "Project: LVT's Amtanks." In this he gives detailed build and painting guides for LVT(A)1 using the Trakz conversion (which corrects numerous inaccuracies in the Italeri kit, though not the angle of the rear turret plate). Also included is a photo spread of LVT(A)1 at Peleliu. More to the point, there is a color plate of "The Bloody Trail." Harper says that the amtank is from the 3rd Armored Amphibian Tractor Battalion and is painted in OD. He says that:
Quoted Text

...this vehicle carried its vehicle marking 'B 7' painted on the rear of the turret. The only other marking it displayed was the name 'The Bloddy Trail' on the pontoon sides.

Having seen several photos from Peleliu, I would agree that the Amtrac/Amtank units did not seem to have painted beach stripes on the vehicles.

Finally, you said that you are interested in depicting the vehicle as it "hits the beach." I would posit that "The Bloody Trail" would almost surely not be present on the pontoon. The appearance of the marking and the sentiment it expresses sure seems like it was chalked on the pontoon as the campaign was prosecuted inland.

I hope that this helps.


Dave
BobCard
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 10:18 PM UTC
Hi Dave,
I agree with you except for the last part;


Quoted Text



Finally, you said that you are interested in depicting the vehicle as it "hits the beach." I would posit that "The Bloody Trail" would almost surely not be present on the pontoon. The appearance of the marking and the sentiment it expresses sure seems like it was chalked on the pontoon as the campaign was prosecuted inland.

I hope that this helps.

Dave



This shows a close up and alittle more info;
Battle Honors

Basically it's painted on and it's probably within 50 yards of the water, on D-Day.

Bob
LVTDOC
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Missouri, United States
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Posted: Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 11:41 PM UTC
Hi All,

The name "The Bloody Trail" was indeed painted on the vehicle before it landed. I interviewed the commander of this vehicle a few years ago and he stated that it was painted on the pontoon while the vehicle was on board the LST enroute to Peleliu.

Also, my color plate of this vehicle in my Amtanks book is incorrect, the vehicle was actually painted in the ocean gray/bluish color, not OD as I depicted.

Live and learn!

David
djohannsen
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Virginia, United States
Joined: June 24, 2005
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Posted: Friday, December 01, 2006 - 12:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Bob Wrote:
Basically it's painted on and it's probably within 50 yards of the water, on D-Day.




Quoted Text

David Wrote:
The name "The Bloody Trail" was indeed painted on the vehicle before it landed. I interviewed the commander of this vehicle a few years ago and he stated that it was painted on the pontoon while the vehicle was on board the LST enroute to Peleliu.

Also, my color plate of this vehicle in my Amtanks book is incorrect, the vehicle was actually painted in the ocean gray/bluish color, not OD as I depicted.



Thank you Bob and David, for the correction. It's great to see that you lurk here, David. I've purchased almost all of your WWII related books, and would just like to say: keep them coming!

It's very interesting to hear about the correct color of this vehicle (just goes to show how fraught with peril it is to try to deduce color from photos). Did you learn this from interviewing veterans? Do you know why "The Bloody Trail" was painted on the side before landing? I'm not doubting the veracity of what you say, but it seems a strange thing to paint while the LVT was aboard ship (i.e., it sure sounds like it refers to a particular trail inland). If you had any more information that you could share, I would be interested to hear.


Dave
LVTDOC
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Missouri, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 01, 2006 - 09:43 PM UTC
The color of the LVTs on Peleliu came from two sources, first, the interviewing of several veterans from the battle, including LVT crews from the 3rd Armored Amphibian Amtrack Battalion. The second source came from color movie footage shot on Peleliu that I tracked down and was able to transfer to DVD.

The name refers to the trail to Tokyo. The Marines new that they were fighting their way to Japan, one island at a time, leaving a trail of bloody battles behind them.

David
djohannsen
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 01, 2006 - 11:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The color of the LVTs on Peleliu came from two sources...

The name refers to the trail to Tokyo....



Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions; it's much appreciated.


Dave
houborg
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Sonderjylland, Denmark
Joined: January 31, 2006
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Posted: Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 05:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The color of the LVTs on Peleliu came from two sources, first, the interviewing of several veterans from the battle, including LVT crews from the 3rd Armored Amphibian Amtrack Battalion. The second source came from color movie footage shot on Peleliu that I tracked down and was able to transfer to DVD.

The name refers to the trail to Tokyo. The Marines new that they were fighting their way to Japan, one island at a time, leaving a trail of bloody battles behind them.

David



Hi David,

So "ocean Gray" it is for the painting - has any of you guys a reference to either Lifecolor, AV Air or other manufacturers who have a color that comes close to this one??

Best regards
Morten
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West Virginia, United States
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Posted: Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 12:03 AM UTC
Hi Morten,

5-O Ocean Gray was a US Navy color. We have it accurately matched in our Colourcoats line of enamels (item US 06). No minimum order on paints, and we ship worldwide.
houborg
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Sonderjylland, Denmark
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Posted: Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 02:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Morten,

5-O Ocean Gray was a US Navy color. We have it accurately matched in our Colourcoats line of enamels (item US 06). No minimum order on paints, and we ship worldwide.



Hi John,

Thank you very much for the update on your WEM color range. I will be ordering soon. BTW could you help me out with the colors for mý german S-100 (I´ll be doing the one with the "Black Panther" on the side!)
I have been building modern armor for way too long and need to broaden my horizon in regards to ships. I just a Revell U-Boot over on model Shipwrights (not the 1/72 one) and loved it.

Best Regards
Morten
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West Virginia, United States
Joined: June 17, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 10:33 PM UTC
S-100 help? Certainly. All vertical surfaces above the waterline should be KM 10 Schnellbootweiss. The underwater hull should be KM 05 Schiffsbodenfarbe III Grau 1. Decks can be either KM 11 Schlickgrau 58, or KM 12 Blaugrau 58.1.
houborg
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Sonderjylland, Denmark
Joined: January 31, 2006
KitMaker: 180 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 04, 2006 - 12:08 AM UTC
Hi John,

Thank you very much - this thread is what it´s all about - helping each other. You guys have done great, and I thank you all for the help received so far.

Best regards
Morten
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