Hello Gents
It might be a dumb question but:
Did Paras from 82nd Airborn in "Normandy" use
BARs at all??? Thanks!

Taesung

Interesting question. I will assume they eventually received them from one source or another, but I cannot recall seeing anyone from either the 101st or the 82nd rigged to jump with one in my photos books. They certainly used the under fuselage containers to drop the .30 cal light machine gun along with 60mm mortars maybe they also put the BAR in there. Gliders brought in a limted number of 57 mm anti-tank guns as they did some AAA systems. You would be on solid ground replicating the individual figure armed with a .45, M-1, M-3 submachine gun (grease gun) or the M-1 Thompson. Depends on whether you are showing him getting ready to go or after landing vice later in the campaign.

Hi Taesung!

I asked this question ages ago, but I can't give a link as the site dosen't seem to want to let me access my past posts..?

From what I can just about remember is that they were mostly used after Normandy (ie Market Garden onwards), but some may have picked one up from an injured infantry soldier, or, as the 82nd had been in the war for a while, a paratrooper may have used one, liked it, kept it and then jumped into Normandy with it!

I will find the link ASAP, but for now I do not think that it was an overly common site amongst the Airborne, but you would not be wrong to include one.

Harry

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/83271#690846

Not exactly your question, but it might help you out a little!

Harry

I would stand by what I said earlier. Weapons abound on a battlefield. For example, Guys no doubt picked up German automatic weapons. But, we did not jump with BARs until the Korean War when American paratroopers were fitted with the individual weapons case (M1950). The bipod legs were often tossed due to their interference with movement. The weight of the legs is negligible. While a very nice weapon that used the same type .30 cal rounds as the light machine gun and M-1, the BAR is a monster to lug and keep clean. If you want to start a discussion at the next model show, put the BAR in the hands of a Normandy 101st or 82nd infantryman. Let us know the results.

The Airborne Did not receive BARs until after Market Garden just prior to the Bulge. It was added to increase the fire power of a single American squad when up againt a German squad that had 2 Mg34/42 and a mortar in comparison to 1 machine gun per squad and only a platoon mortar team. I figured this out when I read David Webster's novel. At the point when he rejoins the unit at Mormelon, which happened a lot differently than the movie, he asked Sholty where he got the BAR.

Matt

Hello Gents
Thanks for the info! I guess I re-started the old debate...
I'll just go with M1 Garand then.

TS

I was always under the impression that the BAR didn't become prevalent with Airborne forces till after Market Garden but you learn something new everyday (in regards to the 82nd airborne). Taesung is this a hint as to a new subject from Alpine that may grace our presence???

Hello Guys
Another question:
Also, did paras from 82nd have mohawk hair?
Or was it just 101st???

This subject will be one of Alpine's new 1/16 scale figure
planned to be released in 2007.

TS

Gday Taesung
Did a peruse and came up with this...



Looks like we both found out something new!
Cheers
Brad

Good fine. Showing you the power of a single photo. One would have gathered from the photo that the entire division cut their hair in this manner.

Taesung,

I already replied over on ML, but thought that I can help on the debate over here as well.

1. Someone said that BARs were not jumped with until Korea. Actually, there is a well-known photo of a 17th AB trooper getting onto a plane prior to the crossing of the Rhine, and he has an extra long Griswold bag with a BAR, and BAR pouches around his waist. So I'd say troopers jumped with them well before Korea.

2. Troopers certainly scooped up weapons whenever, so, unless you are modeling a figure getting onto the plane, he can have almost anything. Bill Dunfee of the 505th, who is featured in such books as "All American All the Way" by Nordyke, "A Blood Dimmed Tide" by Astor, as well as an interview I read with him in Military History Magazine, was a bazooka man in Normandy. Once the bazooka was destroyed by shrapnel, he said "I found a BAR right after that. The BAR was my favorite weapon." He continued to use a BAR throughout the war, even when a Sgt. Who he took it from (infantry, gliderman, etc.) is anybody's guess.

3. Mohawks were, I believe, a 101st feature, most commonly associated with the Filthy 13 (one thing Honeycut left out was this was a special demolition unit and was, in fact, the unit the "Dirty Dozen" was loosely based on)., though others MAY have cut their hair this way as well.

4. German squads had one MG, not two, at least in infantry units. 3 squads each with one MG per platoon, then a 4th MG as part of the platoon HQ which was usually assigned to one of the squads to add firepower.

5. Airborne troopers tended to find themselves lots of extra weapons, especially pistols (nice photo in one of Bando's books of an 82nd trooper with a Browning Hi Power stuffed into his belt in Normandy, probably taken from an SS officer). From my reading, it seems in Normandy more slack was afforded 82nd troopers, particularly from the 505th (since that was a veteran unit) than the 101st. Example: Donald Burgett of the 506th had a nickel plated .45 auto, but his officer had to have it and, if I remember right, jump with it, then give it to him in the combat zone. Never read of such a thing in the 505th.

Hope this helps a bit.

Rob

I conqure with the last post. I two own a number of airborne books including one from author/historian Michel deTrez. There are a number of photos that quite clearly show para's with different weapons, including the BAR. A picture is worth a thousand words... The arguement will continue as to weather they were dropped or not, but the evidence supports para's having "obtained" BARS.

I think people are to quick to judge things from paperwork. In my own research I have found that often times historians made errors. As a kid, and as an adult, I have grown up around, and have interviewed dozens of WWII vets, heard their stories, and seen their photos, clearly disputing some historians...

Hello Gents
Thanks you all for the info!!!
I think I'm getting a pretty good picture of
what this figure will look like.

Another question:
Since the figure will have M1 Garand, I want
to give it 2 ammo bandoliers criss-crossing his chest.
Is this accurate???
My ignorance in Allied subjects really shines bright here...

Taesung

Well, I am the guy who stated the 187th probably jumped with them in Korea. I'd like to see the photo of the 17th Airborne fellow doing it during Operation Varsity so I can ammend, if necessary, my comments. Do you have this well-known photo?

Hi again!
I really don't think that it would be wrong as there are photos of soldiers wearing two M1 bandoliers, mostly both over the same shoulder but crossing would just be down to personal pref.
It seems one bandolier over the shoulder and M1 clips on the belt around the waist was also common, but again giving it two would/should not be wrong.

I'm sure someone else will shed some more light for you!
Harry

The bandolier question, yes, two were common place. Often time packs or the mussette bag was dropped, and only ammo and weapons were carried for the actual assault....

Hi all,

Regarding the bandoliers, two criss-crossed would be fine. Paras tended to carry lots of ammo. Also, if an 82nd trooper, the regular 10 pocket cartridge belt would be bst. For 101st, some had that type, but some used pistol belts with the small, square, rigger made pockets that held 4 clips each. These were used by the 101st b/c the 82nd found them wanting after sicily/italy, where the clips rattled around inside the pouches.

The photo of the 17th AB is pretty well-known b/c it's in the Osprey Campaign series book on Arnhem, I think on the last page, as the book ends with sort of a prologue of the crossing of the Rhine. The trooper has a really long, bulky looking griswold bag (much longer than for an M1), and also has BAR pouches, so I would assume that's a BAR in there.

Rob

On the BAR. I think he meant that the BAR lasted until Korea. I pretty sure the Airborne jumped with them in Operation Varsity.

On the Mohawks. You learn something every day but I think Easy Company also may have done mohawks not totally sure. It mention Leibgott and McClung racing eachother to give the most hair cuts but it doesnt mention the type. I just always persimed it was mohawks.

Two Bandoliers is fine.

Matt

Thanks agian for all the help, gents.
Were there any difference between 82nd and 101st in terms of
the uniforms and equipments? I'm interested in 82nd...

TS

Taesung,

For Normandy, right? Same uniforms (M1942), same weapons (mostly, as noted throughout the thread), same helmets, musette bags, shovels, etc. There were a couple of unique items....

1. Only the 101st used the "cricket" as a signal device.

2. The small square rigger made ammo pouches had mostly been dropped by the 82nd by the time of Normandy, but were pretty common in the 101st for both M1 and M1 carbine ammo. They virtually disappeared from the 101st after Normandy, for the same reasons they disappeared from the 82nd....once one or more clips were removed, the rest rattled around in the pouch.

3. 82nd tended to have mesh on their helmets with smaller "squares" than the 101st, though this was not universal, and you rarely seen 82nd troops with any type of hessian stuff tied or wound through the nets.

4. The added reinforcements on elbows and knees were common, though not universal, for both divisions.

I can't think of anything else that might be different right now, though others may have some ideas.

Rob

The 82nd had a flag patch on the right shoulder. One other unique to the 82nd, athough not common place, some did take green paint to their uniforms and equipment for camoflauge. This was not the norm, but was a unique aspect to some for the 82nd...

Paul is right about the flag. Forgot that one. 82nd used them, 101st did not for Normandy.

I don't think the green paint on the uniform was too common. From photos I've seen, that was more of a pathfinder thing for both divisions (a la the Ted Danson character in Saving Private Ryan).

Rob

Can someone scan the photo in question? I do not have the book and would like to confirm or refute my earlier comment that the BAR was not jumped in combat until Korea.
thanks

Sorry, I don't have a scanner. So I guess you'll have to go to Barnes and Noble or Borders or something and check it out, unless someone else can post it.

I took another look at the photo....it's the last photo in the book, a couple of pages from the back. The guy in question is surrounded by others with the late-type Griswold bag, the type that allows an assembled M1 Garand to be put inside. Next to those bags, his bag looks quite large...it's rectangular the whole way (i.e, one end is not narrower than the other), and he's plainly wearing the BAR ammo belt around his waist.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Rob