Hi folks
Came across a photo of 'Cairo', what appears to be a late M4A2 marines Sherman. Would anyone have any extra info on this particular tank? It looks to have nails covering the hatches for self-defence, and timber planks on the hullsides...
Cheers for responding
Brad
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Cairo: Marines Sherman info
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 06:14 PM UTC
Drader
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Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 06:31 PM UTC
Hi Brad
Some postings on ML suggest Cairo is an M4A3, and there definitely should be concrete behind the 2" oak planks.
Bet this will end up as an 'is it or isn't it?' thread..
David
Some postings on ML suggest Cairo is an M4A3, and there definitely should be concrete behind the 2" oak planks.
Bet this will end up as an 'is it or isn't it?' thread..
David
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Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 06:42 PM UTC
hehe not intended I assure you Dave! On closer inspection, there could be room for concrete behind the timber...
My pic gives nothing away regarding it's identity...
Looks to have steel chevron (T-54 maybe?) track links, smooth drive sprocket, late trans. housing and maybe solid bogeys... The pic I have is of the crew inspecting track damage from a mine; great dio opportunity!
My pic gives nothing away regarding it's identity...
Looks to have steel chevron (T-54 maybe?) track links, smooth drive sprocket, late trans. housing and maybe solid bogeys... The pic I have is of the crew inspecting track damage from a mine; great dio opportunity!
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Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 06:47 PM UTC
This was one of the specific Cairo threads, with some dimensions for the wood/concrete applique
Cairo
David
Cairo
David
Drader
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Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 07:09 PM UTC
ericadeane
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Posted: Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 09:23 PM UTC
I have pictures of several Marine Shermans with the cages atop the hatches (ala Dave Harper's upcoming release). They are in formation with crews in khaki dress uniforms, before the invasion. Other prep work has been done by adding track links to the turret and glacis. No side armor has been applied. It's clear these are M4A3 75Ws due to the lack of applique armor on the hull sides. In Zaloga's "Tank Battles of the Pacific War" by Concord, he calls all of them M4A2s. While most are indistinguishable, the center pic on p. 62 clearly shows the handles on the engine grilles at the centerline of the engine decking. M4A2s didn't have this forward set of handles on their grille work.
Go with the M4A3s. I think Ed Gilbert is correct
By the way, one of my favorite Sherman modellers, James Wechsler, has his M4A3 online:
http://www.track-link.net/gallery/4390
Go with the M4A3s. I think Ed Gilbert is correct
By the way, one of my favorite Sherman modellers, James Wechsler, has his M4A3 online:
http://www.track-link.net/gallery/4390
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Posted: Friday, December 08, 2006 - 05:06 AM UTC
Thanks for the links lads
They were all most informative...
As this is far from my comfort zone, I was of the belief that the Marines only used M4A2s due to compatibilities with diesel fuel...
So was it a case of M4A3(75)w being used late in the war to bolster numbers?
Cheers
Brad
They were all most informative...
As this is far from my comfort zone, I was of the belief that the Marines only used M4A2s due to compatibilities with diesel fuel...
So was it a case of M4A3(75)w being used late in the war to bolster numbers?
Cheers
Brad
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Posted: Friday, December 08, 2006 - 09:52 AM UTC
It was never fully explained why the Marines started using the M4A3. The one reason given was to standardise with the type selected for post war use.
One interview with a WWII Marine tank commander states that the planks used were 2 x 6 oak spaced 2 inches off the armor and the gap filled with sand. The only island mentioned is Saipan. Pictures of Marine Shermans show wood that is wider than 6 inches on Iwo and Okinawa, and another interview I read said the gap was filled with concrete. Both interviews did say that their units pretty much did what they wanted with no dirrectives pro or con from above.
Based on all the late features Cairo is probably an M4A3 as already mentioned.
One interview with a WWII Marine tank commander states that the planks used were 2 x 6 oak spaced 2 inches off the armor and the gap filled with sand. The only island mentioned is Saipan. Pictures of Marine Shermans show wood that is wider than 6 inches on Iwo and Okinawa, and another interview I read said the gap was filled with concrete. Both interviews did say that their units pretty much did what they wanted with no dirrectives pro or con from above.
Based on all the late features Cairo is probably an M4A3 as already mentioned.
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Posted: Friday, December 08, 2006 - 11:28 PM UTC
The Marines on the Pacific Islands used the wooden plank "armor" to prevent Japanses suicide troops from placing magnetic anti-tank mines on the vehicles. This was in response to a change in japanses anti-tank tactics that cost the marines more than a few tanks and crews.
This Japanses tactic also led to a major development in Marine tank-infantry tactical doctrine. Absent a violation of this doctrine, marine tanks are always accompanied by infantry troops who protect the blind side of the tanks while the tanks knock out hard defensive positions.
The Army has "armor".....The Marines have "tanks". For Marines, the tank battalions are primarily infantry support units, a supporting arm like artillery. For the Army, armored battalions are part of the "ground gaining" arms. Clearly, the mission and terrain will dictate how the broad doctrines are applied, and in practice they can look a lot alike on the ground...but the fundamental dioctrines are indeed different.
Similarly, Marine amphibian tractors are designed primarily to get Marine infantry from ship to shore during an amphibious assault....and to provide logistical support, including transportation, once the landing force is ashore. As has been shown over the past couple of years in Iraq, they are not designed primarily to be AFV's. Using them as AFV's has gotten quite a few Marines killed and wounded when RPG's have been encountered. We'll have to see how the new assault amphibian does in the AFV role.
Whiskey6
This Japanses tactic also led to a major development in Marine tank-infantry tactical doctrine. Absent a violation of this doctrine, marine tanks are always accompanied by infantry troops who protect the blind side of the tanks while the tanks knock out hard defensive positions.
The Army has "armor".....The Marines have "tanks". For Marines, the tank battalions are primarily infantry support units, a supporting arm like artillery. For the Army, armored battalions are part of the "ground gaining" arms. Clearly, the mission and terrain will dictate how the broad doctrines are applied, and in practice they can look a lot alike on the ground...but the fundamental dioctrines are indeed different.
Similarly, Marine amphibian tractors are designed primarily to get Marine infantry from ship to shore during an amphibious assault....and to provide logistical support, including transportation, once the landing force is ashore. As has been shown over the past couple of years in Iraq, they are not designed primarily to be AFV's. Using them as AFV's has gotten quite a few Marines killed and wounded when RPG's have been encountered. We'll have to see how the new assault amphibian does in the AFV role.
Whiskey6
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Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 10:31 AM UTC
The standard Sherman for the Marines was the M4A2. However the flame tanks were M4A3s. There were 40 some odd M4A3s converted to flame tanks and assigned to the Marines. I think the conversions were done in Hawaii.
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Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 12:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The standard Sherman for the Marines was the M4A2. However the flame tanks were M4A3s. There were 40 some odd M4A3s converted to flame tanks and assigned to the Marines. I think the conversions were done in Hawaii.
A-ha! Greg, I think you have hit the nail on the head... It Is an M4A3 then, as upon closer inspection of the pic the bow mg looks definitely shorter, as it is actually a E4-5 flame thrower?
Good info lads!
Cheers
Brad
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Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 09:07 PM UTC
Actually, I think all of the flamethrowers used were in place of the main gun in the turret.
Oscar Ed Gilbert, a frequenter of the ML site, is THE MAN when it comes to Marine tanks. I believe in his book all of the tanks of the 5th and 6th Marine Tank Battalions on Iwo were A3s. The 4th might have had some A2s, but they did not have the planks......I could have the units mixed up though, just going from memory. So it wasn't just the flame tanks that were A3s, but most, in fact.
Oscar Ed Gilbert, a frequenter of the ML site, is THE MAN when it comes to Marine tanks. I believe in his book all of the tanks of the 5th and 6th Marine Tank Battalions on Iwo were A3s. The 4th might have had some A2s, but they did not have the planks......I could have the units mixed up though, just going from memory. So it wasn't just the flame tanks that were A3s, but most, in fact.
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Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 09:33 PM UTC
The Marine 6th Tank Battalion on Okinawa used only M4A3 tanks. When new tanks arrived the Bn Commander wanted the wet stowage so traded the M4A2's they had for the M4A3's the other Bn received. No mention is made of these all being flame tanks. Concords Pacific Tanks book has some very good pictures of the M4A3 in Marine service. Look at the rear hull. If the back is clear the bars to hold the engine grill up are easy to spot on the hull.
The hull mounted flame gun was not well liked as it had limited number of uses and you had to point the tank at the target. The turret mounted version was a much better weapon. The bow mount flame tube is a simple tube and very short.
Cairo mounts a standard 30 cal bow gun. In the picture it is pointed to the side, however the holes in the cooling jacket are visible as is the slotted end. As the tank was on Iwo Jima where there were late war M4A2's, the tank could be an M4A2. There were M4A3's on Iwo, including 8 with the turret mounted flame guns.
The hull mounted flame gun was not well liked as it had limited number of uses and you had to point the tank at the target. The turret mounted version was a much better weapon. The bow mount flame tube is a simple tube and very short.
Cairo mounts a standard 30 cal bow gun. In the picture it is pointed to the side, however the holes in the cooling jacket are visible as is the slotted end. As the tank was on Iwo Jima where there were late war M4A2's, the tank could be an M4A2. There were M4A3's on Iwo, including 8 with the turret mounted flame guns.
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 01:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Cairo mounts a standard 30 cal bow gun. In the picture it is pointed to the side, however the holes in the cooling jacket are visible as is the slotted end.
Ok, I'll admit that my pic is not quality enough to view any holes in the cooling jacket, but if it is on a bidduva angle it would explain its appearance! :-)
So now it's a M4A3 without being a flame tank...
m4sherman
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 01:49 AM UTC
[/quote]
Ok, I'll admit that my pic is not quality enough to view any holes in the cooling jacket, but if it is on a bidduva angle it would explain its appearance! :-)
So now it's a M4A3 without being a flame tank... [/quote]
Brad,
I have to update my opinion to a maybe as I could not find any other views besides the front right view. My source for the picture is the Hunnicutt book, which is a nice clear picture. The very late war M4A2's and A3's are very hard to tell apart after the Marines got finished adding all the extra bits!
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 04:25 AM UTC
M4A2s were used by the Marines for the ease of logistics as they used diesel fuel like the Navy used. However later in the war when the logistics supply chain became strongly developed there was no problem distributing gasoline.