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Dragon's King Tigers
f1matt
Joined: August 13, 2006
KitMaker: 1,021 posts
Armorama: 805 posts
Posted: Monday, January 08, 2007 - 12:33 PM UTC
I was wondering if there was any difference in the various king tiger kits (with Henschel turrets) other than the decals that are included and the track types?I know the early production models didn't have spare track hangers but is that basically it? Any help is much appreciated.
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, January 08, 2007 - 05:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I was wondering if there was any difference in the various king tiger kits (with Henschel turrets) other than the decals that are included and the track types?I know the early production models didn't have spare track hangers but is that basically it? Any help is much appreciated.
Kit-wise the only one that really stands out is 6232, which includes the single link tracks and late style 18 teeth sprocket.
Other than that, the "other" Battle of the Bulge Tiger-B kit has magic-tracks.
But they are essentially all the same, chassis is even identical to those with the early turret.
cyber-Hobby has an initial Tiger-B, which has some of the earliest fittings like the pot for the breathing tube to be used for submerged use, and it doesn't have the notch for the driver's periscope in the glacis.
There have been 2 Tiger-B's with early turret which had track-hangers fitted to the turret.
Apart from that, numerous smaller changes occured during the production run of the Tiger-B.
And for your further information, there is no such thing as either a "Porsche" or "Henschel" turret, both turrets were designed and produced by Krupp.
that what is commonly but erroneously called a "Porsche" turret is in fact innitialy designed for the first Henschel entry into the "Tiger mit L/71 88mm KwK" competition, the VK-4502.
After this design was rejected, Porsche was asked to design a chassis, their VK-4502(P), but these 2 designs were also rejected, after which Henschel was persuaded to "give it another go" resulting in the VK-4503(H) or also called Tiger-3 design, which culminated in the Tiger Ausf. B.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, January 08, 2007 - 05:37 PM UTC
I told Dragon what you just said, and advised them to take the words "porsche turret" off their kits. They basically replied "we believe you, but the customers won't!"
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, January 08, 2007 - 06:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I told Dragon what you just said, and advised them to take the words "porsche turret" off their kits. They basically replied "we believe you, but the customers won't!"
And the customers still believe Spielberger. He did much for researching German armour, but he also introduced several stubborn myths and factual errors.
I'd love to see a new DML Panther-II with optional Ausf. G turret.
gdahl1
Joined: January 08, 2007
KitMaker: 3 posts
Armorama: 2 posts
Posted: Monday, January 08, 2007 - 07:05 PM UTC
I am really confused about all of Dragon's Tiger II kits. Near as I can figure, they have the following:
6312 - "Porsche" Turret. Premium edition.
6209 - "Henschel" Turret. Original release
6254 - "Henschel" Turret. Updated release but not "premium" edition
6324 - "Henschel" turret. Magic tracks but not "premium"
6232 - "Henschel" Turret. Fiddly tracks representing small subset of equipped tiger IIs.
I'll bet I missed others. I've been looking to get one to build but trying to find the right balance between accuracy, "build-ability" and nice details is a challenge to say the least.
6312 - "Porsche" Turret. Premium edition.
6209 - "Henschel" Turret. Original release
6254 - "Henschel" Turret. Updated release but not "premium" edition
6324 - "Henschel" turret. Magic tracks but not "premium"
6232 - "Henschel" Turret. Fiddly tracks representing small subset of equipped tiger IIs.
I'll bet I missed others. I've been looking to get one to build but trying to find the right balance between accuracy, "build-ability" and nice details is a challenge to say the least.
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, January 08, 2007 - 08:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I am really confused about all of Dragon's Tiger II kits. Near as I can figure, they have the following:
6312 - "Porsche" Turret. Premium edition.
6209 - "Henschel" Turret. Original release
6254 - "Henschel" Turret. Updated release but not "premium" edition
6324 - "Henschel" turret. Magic tracks but not "premium"
6232 - "Henschel" Turret. Fiddly tracks representing small subset of equipped tiger IIs.
I'll bet I missed others. I've been looking to get one to build but trying to find the right balance between accuracy, "build-ability" and nice details is a challenge to say the least.
The complete list is:
6189: "Porsche" turret, original release
6208: "Henschel" turret, original release
6232: Late King Tiger, new pattern track (single link tracks) alu barrel
6254: BoB Tiger-B, with Magic Tracks, alu barrel
6312: "Porsche" turret, premium
Cyber Hobby:
6349 Initial Tiger-B
DX-06:
Alfred Kurzmaul Tiger-B
There still is kit no 6209 on PMMS, which is a final version Tiger-B. But I don't expect that one to ever surface.
sauceman
Joined: September 28, 2006
KitMaker: 2,672 posts
Armorama: 2,475 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 02:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI told Dragon what you just said, and advised them to take the words "porsche turret" off their kits. They basically replied "we believe you, but the customers won't!"
And the customers still believe Spielberger. He did much for researching German armour, but he also introduced several stubborn myths and factual errors.
I'd love to see a new DML Panther-II with optional Ausf. G turret.
When you need to blow your nose, do you ask for a "Kleenex" or a "facial tissue" ?
cheers
Lisec
Joined: September 13, 2006
KitMaker: 306 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 02:29 AM UTC
there is allso Tamiyas 1/48 "henschel" tiger-mid production....
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 03:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextI told Dragon what you just said, and advised them to take the words "porsche turret" off their kits. They basically replied "we believe you, but the customers won't!"
And the customers still believe Spielberger. He did much for researching German armour, but he also introduced several stubborn myths and factual errors.
I'd love to see a new DML Panther-II with optional Ausf. G turret.
When you need to blow your nose, do you ask for a "Kleenex" or a "facial tissue" ?
cheers
Forgive me for being rude, but that is just stupid reasoning.
Just because a name has become familiar doesn't make it right, okay?
Are you still calling all people who live in the former Soviet Union a Russian? Hmmm? Might try that in Georgia for instance, or Belorus.
This gets brought up again and again by people who think that it's so much easier to just keep up that incorrect name.
Yeah, that's easier, but it is also WRONG.
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 03:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
there is allso Tamiyas 1/48 "henschel" tiger-mid production....
I think you are mixing 2 kits.
"Henschel" King Tiger and Tiger 1 mid production.
Both of which are names which are given to these vehicles many years after the date.
For the Germans, there wasn't an early, mid or late Tiger-E, they were all Tiger-Es with production modifications.
If one should need to make distinction between the 2 turrets used on the Tiger-B, a much better although still not official used designation would be Tiger-B with simplified turret.
Because that covers the whole reason for the new turret, a simplified design.
Lisec
Joined: September 13, 2006
KitMaker: 306 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 04:00 AM UTC
ok, Tamiya 1/48 production turet would be the right way to say
as to the "mid", it is actually mid for me, cause the "early" had "porsche" turet, single link tracks, "mid" had production turet,"two"link tracks and "late" had production turet, single link tracks again
as to the "mid", it is actually mid for me, cause the "early" had "porsche" turet, single link tracks, "mid" had production turet,"two"link tracks and "late" had production turet, single link tracks again
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 04:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
ok, Tamiya 1/48 production turet would be the right way to say
as to the "mid", it is actually mid for me, cause the "early" had "porsche" turet, single link tracks, "mid" had production turet,"two"link tracks and "late" had production turet, single link tracks again
However, that is not the way things went with the Tiger-B.
The early turret was mounted on chassis that had double-link tracks, and those in 2 versions, one with the 4 part bridge-link and one set, the most common, with the one piece bridge link. Single link track only surfaced on the small batch of test vehicles in the Ardennes, and some Tiger-B's produced in March/April '45.
Early turret Tiger-B's also came with both monobloc and duobloc guns, binocular and monocular gunsights.
The first simplified turret Tiger-B's had no trackhangers, the same loaders hatch as the early turret, and the common tracks.
Later on, the loader's hatch was changed.
From September '44, most of the fitting were dropped, like the jack, jackblock and trackmounting cable.
The final version, the one which is signified as being outfitted with the single link tracks, has not been produced (at least, it hasn't been proven on photographs) exactly to those specs.
Some have the cupola without the AA-ring and a peg instead, some had the re-inforce front trackguard, some had the single link tracks, some had combinations.
You could actually make quite a lot of different Tiger-B models, as many small modifications happened during the production run. Most of which the casual modeller would be oblivious to. The best source in my opinion about the Tiger-B is Jentz VK-4502 to Tiger-II book.
seanmoriarty
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 63 posts
Armorama: 61 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 11:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI am really confused about all of Dragon's Tiger II kits. Near as I can figure, they have the following:
6312 - "Porsche" Turret. Premium edition.
6209 - "Henschel" Turret. Original release
6254 - "Henschel" Turret. Updated release but not "premium" edition
6324 - "Henschel" turret. Magic tracks but not "premium"
6232 - "Henschel" Turret. Fiddly tracks representing small subset of equipped tiger IIs.
I'll bet I missed others. I've been looking to get one to build but trying to find the right balance between accuracy, "build-ability" and nice details is a challenge to say the least.
The complete list is:
6189: "Porsche" turret, original release
6208: "Henschel" turret, original release
6232: Late King Tiger, new pattern track (single link tracks) alu barrel
6254: BoB Tiger-B, with Magic Tracks, alu barrel
6312: "Porsche" turret, premium
Cyber Hobby:
6349 Initial Tiger-B
DX-06:
Alfred Kurzmaul Tiger-B
There still is kit no 6209 on PMMS, which is a final version Tiger-B. But I don't expect that one to ever surface.
6209 has just been released, i picked mine up yesterday
vonHengest
Joined: June 29, 2010
KitMaker: 5,854 posts
Armorama: 4,817 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 12:43 PM UTC
Matthew, is there a specific Tiger II that you wish to produce? Or is this a question of general curiosity?
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 02:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Matthew, is there a specific Tiger II that you wish to produce? Or is this a question of general curiosity?
Check the date on the original opening post...................
junglejim
Joined: February 18, 2003
KitMaker: 1,728 posts
Armorama: 1,629 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 02:36 PM UTC
WPDijk
Joined: December 02, 2014
KitMaker: 2 posts
Armorama: 2 posts
Posted: Monday, December 01, 2014 - 03:59 PM UTC
Dear H_Ackermans
"And the customers still believe Spielberger. He did much for researching German armour, but he also introduced several stubborn myths and factual errors."
It's good that you mention this, but what are the errors he has spread (and ofcourse, what the evidence/source that he is wrong)
"And the customers still believe Spielberger. He did much for researching German armour, but he also introduced several stubborn myths and factual errors."
It's good that you mention this, but what are the errors he has spread (and ofcourse, what the evidence/source that he is wrong)
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Monday, December 01, 2014 - 08:04 PM UTC
Mr. Ackermans decided in 2010 that Armorama wasn't sufficiently appreciative of his gifts and left with his ball to go home. He hasn't been back since, and so I would not expect him to answer your question.
WPDijk
Joined: December 02, 2014
KitMaker: 2 posts
Armorama: 2 posts
Posted: Monday, December 01, 2014 - 09:45 PM UTC
Now that's a pity... He seemed to know a lot of things.
miniflea
Joined: October 17, 2011
KitMaker: 237 posts
Armorama: 235 posts
Posted: Monday, December 01, 2014 - 11:53 PM UTC
Is there a preferred nomenclature for the two turrets? I know Henschel and Porsche are technically wrong but I also know that everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about if I use those terms. Early and Late?
AFVFan
Joined: May 17, 2012
KitMaker: 1,980 posts
Armorama: 1,571 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 - 02:30 AM UTC
Original and redesigned ? That should sufficiently confuse most people.
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