To all you M1 experts out there, can I backdate Tamiyas M1A1 to an M1? I realize there is the rear sprocket track guide ( sorry I'm sure there is a more technical term), what else would need to be done?
I've done a bit of a search but I don't really know what I'm looking for.
Thanks for your patience
Peter
Hosted by Darren Baker
Backdating Tamiyas M1A1 to an M1 - possible?
Joker
Joined: May 28, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 12:17 AM UTC
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 02:02 AM UTC
Pete-- obviously, you need to change the main gun from 120mm on the M1A1 to the M68 105mm gun. Same gun as the M-60A3 with thermal shrouds. Apart from those distinctions, the vehicles were basically the same on the exterior. Internal alteration were numerous and included such things as the number of rounds in the bustle rack (44..with 22 on a side) loss of the 11 hull rounds (M-1 carried 55 main gun rounds) and the fire controls (sights, computer, etc). If you PM me, I have an M-1 kit I will gladly send you...
DJ
DJ
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 02:16 AM UTC
The main issue is the turret length. The original M1 turret was about 5mm shorter in scale. The added length on the M1A1 was in anticipation of the DU plates on the front of the turret. If you have any of the Academy M1A1s, you have the correct length turret for an M1. Academy copied their Abrams from Tamiya's original M1 molds and never updated the turret length.
Joker
Joined: May 28, 2004
KitMaker: 813 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 02:21 AM UTC
DJ,
Thanks for the response. Would the track be the same style as the Tamiya included track? (Chevron) Would the APU still be present on the rear of the vehicle or present at all?
Once again thanks, and thank you very much for the offer.
Peter
Thanks for the response. Would the track be the same style as the Tamiya included track? (Chevron) Would the APU still be present on the rear of the vehicle or present at all?
Once again thanks, and thank you very much for the offer.
Peter
Dixon66
Joined: December 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,500 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 02:28 AM UTC
The track could be the style included in the Tamiya kit, but, the Tamiya tracks are made wrong (I think Academy made that mistake when copying that too!). Take a close look at the guide pins and you will see that they are not set to go from link to link but are instead in the middle of the tread.
Dave S.
Dave S.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 04:31 AM UTC
The big difference in the hull is the lack of the NBC overpressurization system in the M1. If you look at your M1A1 kit, you will see some mechanical fittings, bolts and brackets along the top of the left side of the hull. On the right side, there is a simple sponson box lid (long, rectangular item with a raised X on it). An M1 or M1IP would have that sponson box lid on both sides of the hull.
The turret would have a different main gun as stated above. Additionally, the raised circular plate forward of the loader's hatch is not present on the M1 or M1IP. The GPS or gunner's primary sight housing changed as well.
The turret side sponson boxes are shorter on the M1 and M1IP than on the M1A1.
The rear turret bustle rack is not present on the M1, but it is on the M1IP.
The track, sprocket retainer ring and last side skirt cut out are not really vital to the differences between the M1/M1IP/M1A1.
I've been working on an M1IP using the old Tamiya M1 and the Academy M1A1. It is a fairly easy conversion. The Tamiya kit straight out-of-box builds into an early pre-production M1 Abrams tank. They did not exist for very long as such. Most were upgraded into M1IPs either before fielding or modified while they were at the unit level by contract teams.
The turret would have a different main gun as stated above. Additionally, the raised circular plate forward of the loader's hatch is not present on the M1 or M1IP. The GPS or gunner's primary sight housing changed as well.
The turret side sponson boxes are shorter on the M1 and M1IP than on the M1A1.
The rear turret bustle rack is not present on the M1, but it is on the M1IP.
The track, sprocket retainer ring and last side skirt cut out are not really vital to the differences between the M1/M1IP/M1A1.
I've been working on an M1IP using the old Tamiya M1 and the Academy M1A1. It is a fairly easy conversion. The Tamiya kit straight out-of-box builds into an early pre-production M1 Abrams tank. They did not exist for very long as such. Most were upgraded into M1IPs either before fielding or modified while they were at the unit level by contract teams.
crockett
Joined: February 04, 2005
KitMaker: 370 posts
Armorama: 302 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 05:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Pete-- obviously, you need to change the main gun from 120mm on the M1A1 to the M68 105mm gun. Same gun as the M-60A3 with thermal shrouds. Apart from those distinctions, the vehicles were basically the same on the exterior. Internal alteration were numerous and included such things as the number of rounds in the bustle rack (44..with 22 on a side) loss of the 11 hull rounds (M-1 carried 55 main gun rounds) and the fire controls (sights, computer, etc). If you PM me, I have an M-1 kit I will gladly send you...
DJ
Sorry to disagree, but the statement that the vehicles are basically the same regarding the exterior is incorrect. The list is quite extensive, Rob has captured most. Another issue is the gun shield (mantlet) is completely different for the A1. The turret modifications alone would be challenging to say the least.
Steve
orange_3D
Joined: July 28, 2005
KitMaker: 602 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 07:59 AM UTC
And also the ammo bin blast-off doors on the turret top are a different configuration, if i remember correctly.
Interesting problem you got there, i remember back in the late 80's modelers were trying to convert there tamiya m1 to m1a1
Interesting problem you got there, i remember back in the late 80's modelers were trying to convert there tamiya m1 to m1a1
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 06:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextPete-- obviously, you need to change the main gun from 120mm on the M1A1 to the M68 105mm gun. Same gun as the M-60A3 with thermal shrouds. Apart from those distinctions, the vehicles were basically the same on the exterior. Internal alteration were numerous and included such things as the number of rounds in the bustle rack (44..with 22 on a side) loss of the 11 hull rounds (M-1 carried 55 main gun rounds) and the fire controls (sights, computer, etc). If you PM me, I have an M-1 kit I will gladly send you...
DJ
Sorry to disagree, but the statement that the vehicles are basically the same regarding the exterior is incorrect. The list is quite extensive, Rob has captured most. Another issue is the gun shield (mantlet) is completely different for the A1. The turret modifications alone would be challenging to say the least.
Steve
Steve--I stand by what I wrote. It would take a side by side comparison to note the blow off panels, gun mantle, chemical over pressure, etc differences. When you look at those vehicles they are basically the same on the exterior. Disagree if you wish. Bottomline, the amount of work that you would have to undergo to replicate the M1 from the A1 are not worth it. I have the kit ready to go to him if asked.
DJ
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 06:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
DJ,
Thanks for the response. Would the track be the same style as the Tamiya included track? (Chevron) Would the APU still be present on the rear of the vehicle or present at all?
Once again thanks, and thank you very much for the offer.
Peter
Peter send me your address via a personal message and I will mail the kit to you.
DJ
Charlie-66
#186
Joined: May 24, 2006
KitMaker: 771 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 06:39 PM UTC
Don't forget the blast panels on the rear of the turret roof. On the M1A1 there are two large rectangular ones. On the M1 there were 3 smaller blast panels and I believe 1 of the three had a bit of an angle to it.
it's been years since I built Tamiya's original M1 kit. IIRC with some AM stuff it should build into a nice kit.
it's been years since I built Tamiya's original M1 kit. IIRC with some AM stuff it should build into a nice kit.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 07:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The original production M1s used the 3-panel system, but these were changed with the M1IP to the current 2-panel style used on the M1A1 and beyond. All 3 panels on the kit have an angular shape (trapezoids?) to them.Don't forget the blast panels on the rear of the turret roof. On the M1A1 there are two large rectangular ones. On the M1 there were 3 smaller blast panels and I believe 1 of the three had a bit of an angle to it.
it's been years since I built Tamiya's original M1 kit. IIRC with some AM stuff it should build into a nice kit.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 07:46 PM UTC
Peter-- send me your address....I'll never build the darn thing anyway. 
DJ
DJ
Joker
Joined: May 28, 2004
KitMaker: 813 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 07:53 PM UTC
Lads,
Thanks for all your input. I found some photos over at Tankmaster of an M1, and after viewing the pictures with the kit, side by side it seems to me a fairly straight forward conversion. Only time will tell if I get the job done.
Thanks for all your help
Peter
PS, DJ, PM inbound, joker out
Thanks for all your input. I found some photos over at Tankmaster of an M1, and after viewing the pictures with the kit, side by side it seems to me a fairly straight forward conversion. Only time will tell if I get the job done.
Thanks for all your help
Peter
PS, DJ, PM inbound, joker out
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 08:26 PM UTC
The original Tamiya M1 is still a decent kit, just keep in mind that when it was issued, a lot of the Abrams information was still classified. It is the granddaddy of all Abrams kits.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 08:27 PM UTC
Six points for the team! 
M-1 kit to be sent Peter on Tuesday.
DJ
M-1 kit to be sent Peter on Tuesday.DJ
Tankrider
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 09:25 PM UTC
DJ,
Did you include the custom 2-10 Cav/HQ66 bumper numbers decals in the kit??? I have one of those Tamiya M1s sitting on my computer as I type. I think that it would need some up to date details and new tracks but should tbuild up into a nice kit. I think that I will use a M1 turret that I have in my stash and mate it with the hull from a DML Panther II.
I still remember your tank coming out of nowhere, sliding to a halt, and you flying out of the hatch to have a meaningful conversation with your B Co commander over the finer points to conducting a passage of lines at Ft Bliss.
Ah, the memories of a young LT who was not in the beaten zone, that time... Priceless.
John
Did you include the custom 2-10 Cav/HQ66 bumper numbers decals in the kit??? I have one of those Tamiya M1s sitting on my computer as I type. I think that it would need some up to date details and new tracks but should tbuild up into a nice kit. I think that I will use a M1 turret that I have in my stash and mate it with the hull from a DML Panther II.
I still remember your tank coming out of nowhere, sliding to a halt, and you flying out of the hatch to have a meaningful conversation with your B Co commander over the finer points to conducting a passage of lines at Ft Bliss.
Ah, the memories of a young LT who was not in the beaten zone, that time... Priceless.
John
junglejim
Joined: February 18, 2003
KitMaker: 1,728 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 10:21 PM UTC
In regards to the M1 ammo bin panels, it would appear on the Tank Master pictures that they are all right-angled and rectangular (see here ).
I know this is only one particular vehicle, and Tamiya must have got their info from somewhere, so there are probably both types. Just never saw a real photo of the angled ones.
Here's my interpretation of the M1 turret (from the original Tamiya kit) that I started working on long ago:
I'm also converting an Academy "M1A1" to a M1, little more work there, but at least the turret is the right size!
Cheers,
Jim
I know this is only one particular vehicle, and Tamiya must have got their info from somewhere, so there are probably both types. Just never saw a real photo of the angled ones.
Here's my interpretation of the M1 turret (from the original Tamiya kit) that I started working on long ago:
I'm also converting an Academy "M1A1" to a M1, little more work there, but at least the turret is the right size!
Cheers,
Jim
crockett
Joined: February 04, 2005
KitMaker: 370 posts
Armorama: 302 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 11:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextPete-- obviously, you need to change the main gun from 120mm on the M1A1 to the M68 105mm gun. Same gun as the M-60A3 with thermal shrouds. Apart from those distinctions, the vehicles were basically the same on the exterior. Internal alteration were numerous and included such things as the number of rounds in the bustle rack (44..with 22 on a side) loss of the 11 hull rounds (M-1 carried 55 main gun rounds) and the fire controls (sights, computer, etc). If you PM me, I have an M-1 kit I will gladly send you...
DJ
Sorry to disagree, but the statement that the vehicles are basically the same regarding the exterior is incorrect. The list is quite extensive, Rob has captured most. Another issue is the gun shield (mantlet) is completely different for the A1. The turret modifications alone would be challenging to say the least.
Steve
Steve--I stand by what I wrote. It would take a side by side comparison to note the blow off panels, gun mantle, chemical over pressure, etc differences. When you look at those vehicles they are basically the same on the exterior. Disagree if you wish. Bottomline, the amount of work that you would have to undergo to replicate the M1 from the A1 are not worth it. I have the kit ready to go to him if asked.
DJ
Hey DJ,
After crewing the prototype XM1's from 1977 to 1979, and working at the Lima Army tank plant for over 16 years building these vehicles, it's a little hard for me to buy in to general statements about the Abrams. The M1 and A1 are not the same, either hull nor turret. In a very basic sense, to an untrained eye, I suppose one could say "they all look alike", but I think most members here are concerned with some level of accuracy.
I wouldn't disagree if I didn't have first hand experience with the vehicle.
regards, Steve
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 12, 2007 - 02:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In regards to the M1 ammo bin panels, it would appear on the Tank Master pictures that they are all right-angled and rectangular (see here ).
Actually these photos prove that these panels were NOT rectangular and Tamiya captured the shape well. I hope you know how the perspective works: all lines that are parallel in real life will meet in a single point when shown in perspective. Photos obviously show perspective view. Now check my drawing below - it clearly shows that inner edges of outer panels are not parallel to to each other and not parallel to outer edges. So these panels are indeed trapezoidal, as Tamiya made them.
By the way, Rob mentioned that M1IP had the same panel layout as M1A1, but all photos I have of M1IPs show the original early layout with three panels. I don't say that Rob is wrong, just it looks like both styles were present on M1IP and somehow the style Rob mentioned is not shown on any M1IP photo in my collection.
Pawel
junglejim
Joined: February 18, 2003
KitMaker: 1,728 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 12, 2007 - 03:53 AM UTC
What? OK, do your little perspective thingy from the rear views and see what you come up with. If they meet up again like your experiment, wouldn't that make them diamond shape? 
The 'perspective' in the photo is due to the camera angle, I bet if it was taken from directly above it would look square. Look at all the other pics on that site, if there are any angles, it's certainly not a pronounced as the Tamiya ones.
Jim
The 'perspective' in the photo is due to the camera angle, I bet if it was taken from directly above it would look square. Look at all the other pics on that site, if there are any angles, it's certainly not a pronounced as the Tamiya ones.Jim
Teacher
Joined: April 05, 2003
KitMaker: 4,924 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 12, 2007 - 04:09 AM UTC
I'm sorry Pawel. I know nothing about that vehicle, but I do know about perspective, and you're wrong with what you can infer from that photograph. Given that images are subject to barrel distortion amongst other things, it's quite likely the lines wouldn't meet even if they were parallel. You may be correct about the panels, I wouldn't know, but you cannot use a photograph such as that for proof of it.
Vinnie
Vinnie
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2007 - 04:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I know both types exist on the M1IP, but I believe that the 3-panel style are XM1 and original M1s that were upgraded to M1IP and the 2-panel style were factory produced M1IPs.By the way, Rob mentioned that M1IP had the same panel layout as M1A1, but all photos I have of M1IPs show the original early layout with three panels. I don't say that Rob is wrong, just it looks like both styles were present on M1IP and somehow the style Rob mentioned is not shown on any M1IP photo in my collection.
Pawel
The M1IP I trained on as a lieutenant here at Ft. Knox was an XM1 (according to the data plate on the tank) that had been modified to M1IP standards. It had the 3-panel style of blast panels.
The two M1IPs I owned in Massachusetts from 2001-2005 both had the 2-panel style of blast panels. They were produced at the factory as M1IPs.
If you read my initial response, I noted that these changed with the M1IP. It is not something that would be modified on the original XM1 or M1.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2007 - 07:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextPete-- obviously, you need to change the main gun from 120mm on the M1A1 to the M68 105mm gun. Same gun as the M-60A3 with thermal shrouds. Apart from those distinctions, the vehicles were basically the same on the exterior. Internal alteration were numerous and included such things as the number of rounds in the bustle rack (44..with 22 on a side) loss of the 11 hull rounds (M-1 carried 55 main gun rounds) and the fire controls (sights, computer, etc). If you PM me, I have an M-1 kit I will gladly send you...
DJ
Sorry to disagree, but the statement that the vehicles are basically the same regarding the exterior is incorrect. The list is quite extensive, Rob has captured most. Another issue is the gun shield (mantlet) is completely different for the A1. The turret modifications alone would be challenging to say the least.
Steve
Steve--I stand by what I wrote. It would take a side by side comparison to note the blow off panels, gun mantle, chemical over pressure, etc differences. When you look at those vehicles they are basically the same on the exterior. Disagree if you wish. Bottomline, the amount of work that you would have to undergo to replicate the M1 from the A1 are not worth it. I have the kit ready to go to him if asked.
DJ
Hey DJ,
After crewing the prototype XM1's from 1977 to 1979, and working at the Lima Army tank plant for over 16 years building these vehicles, it's a little hard for me to buy in to general statements about the Abrams. The M1 and A1 are not the same, either hull nor turret. In a very basic sense, to an untrained eye, I suppose one could say "they all look alike", but I think most members here are concerned with some level of accuracy.
I wouldn't disagree if I didn't have first hand experience with the vehicle.
regards, Steve
Sir-- I defer to your surpeior knowedge on the subject. I am a simple man who used the equipment. Your expertise outweighs my meager contribution to the discussion.
DJ
Joker
Joined: May 28, 2004
KitMaker: 813 posts
Armorama: 522 posts
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2007 - 07:41 AM UTC
Woah, guys... Lets take a step back and breath deep. I really appreciate the fact that we all strive for accuracy but at what cost? It's not worth people getting PO'd at each other. Lets keep some perspective on this, its just a model, no ones gonna die, if it's not 100% accurate.... I sure won't.
Once again my thanks to all for their input.
Pete
Once again my thanks to all for their input.
Pete
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