Personally I think the whole Vichy French thing is one of the least known or understood elements of WWII in Europe. For instance... Did the Germans allow the Vichy to arm themselves with armored vehicles? Did they arm them with German made vehicles or were they relegated to outdated Renaults? Also how was the Vichy coastline defended? Were their German troops there or was it the responsibility of the Vichy government to protect that stretch of coast? Why wouldn't we have invaded there were it would have been weaker and obviously a lot of French units would have turned sides?

Perhaps someone with more detailed knowledge of this area and historical events can "clue" me in. I admit my depth of detail on this topic is limited. It's almost like the whole affair was swept under the rug to spare the French some level of dishonor. I personally don't feel this way as I know that French resistence fighters played a key role in Allied victories. And if the Vichy government (who obviously weren't saints) hadn't formed then things would have probably been worse for southern France. Albeit the German forces would have been spread even thinner though.

Cheers,
Jim

Firstly, there was no Vichy controlled coast in any part of France, it was all under control by the Germans. Any part of the French western coast was not much of a concern for invasion. Which is why it wasn't protected too much. Logistics for the allies was not feasible for a west coast invasion. The Vichy in France was more or less a disbanded French army whose job was more like the Police - to keep some order with the non-compliant French peoples. Their highest priority was of defence of France from the allies and hoped to get other French citizens to turn-coat, as it were. The Germans never really trusted the Vichy fully. They were viewed by Germany as conquered people rather than their allies.
In the middle of 1943, as Germany realized that all help was needed, the Germans granted the dude named Laval to create an army named Milice, who proved their worth to the Nazis by defeating a resistance cell in les Glières. ( I have no idea if they had or what they had in terms of armor)
Another army was put together called Légion des volontaires français contre le bolchevisme (LVF). Which was sent to fight the Soviets in Nazi uniforms. These guys even continued to fight in Germany after France was liberated. By than they were part of SS Charlemagne division.
However, the Vichy did occupy and control parts of Syria and the Syrian coast, against any allied invasion. But, they were of course defeated in 1941 by British and Free French forces who came from behind (cool little out-flanking action) through Iraq and Palastine. I do know that they put up a good fight at first but, again I do not know what if any armor they had.

As far as in France, here is a little quote from the writings of Don Whitehead:

"The first French column to enter the city reached Luxembourg at 10:20 a.m. The Germans, the collaborationist militia and the French Gestapo organization opened fire with machine guns, rifles and pistols and the battle was on."

So, I would have to conclude that, at least in France the Vichy had used no armor.

Ken,
Thanks for the info. I found some other sites that didn't portray the Vichy government in too good a light. There was this reference about Vichy Renault tanks in North Africa.




The quest for knowledge continues.

Jim

Jim,
The books i have on the subject of France, in europe Kencelot is correct on that they were nothing more than police used against the citizens,but in Syria and Africa,the garrisons there had some armor as in the old FT-17 renault and some R-35's and R-39's,which surviving R-35's and R-39's also saw some service with Israeli forces in their 1948 war with Syria,the only one not in model form is the R-39 unless someone does one in small
scale.Hope this helps a little. Happy Modeling.
modelmaniac

Howdy all,

Sorry to throw this post in here, but I used the search engine looking for a 'French Tanks' thread and this is what it came up with.
Anyway, my question is this. What kind of turret is on the French Sherman pictured in the middle of this photo?



And what I'm specifically referring to is the little 'droopy' thing underneath the turret itself. I'm I missing something obvious that I'll be embarassed about missing?

Oh,and BTW, can you believe I was able to actually post a photo without making a big fuss about it? I'm all 'atitter'....:-)

Trread:

That "droopy thing" a tow cable.

Those Shermans aren't Vichy, in case anyone wondered.

Here's a wonderful French Sherman site, if anyone is interested:
http://www.chars-francais.net/listing_m4.htm

I'm afraid I don't have much info on Vichy armour, but I think what has been said already sounds like what I have heard and read before.

From everything I have read most Vichy units were sent to Africa and many french vehicles were used against the partisans. In North Africa the Germans let the Vichy defend the coast lines of Morocco and Algeria. During operation Torch (November 1942) US and British forces were fighting not Germans but Vichy French. Ground fighting was sporadic but there were some intense air battles especially between VF-9 flying F4F-4 Wilcats from the USS Ranger against French pilots flying P-36's. One or two days after the initial landings SBD Dauntless dive bombers and American Spitfires attacked a column of French tanks and infantry going to attempt a recapture of an airfield. US Stuarts (M3A1) from Co. B 1st armored intercepted and attacked the column destroying the remaining tanks and vehicles (14 tanks destroyed for no losses). The French column was overwhelmed and surrendered. After the Armistance the French forces were issued American equipment and they fought against the Germans.

I know my granddad was based in the ivory coast for aprt of the war as a blocking force to stop any vichy french moving up/down the west coast of africa from their colonies down there if any one as some info on this I'd be interested too! :-)

I'll just say the same as the others : no german tank was used by Vichy, and as far as I know, they had no tank in france... and I also heard about their use in north africa...

French tanks and vehicles still in france were in fact taken over by the wehrmacht. For exemple, check your pictures of these hughe tanks used by the german during market garden : they are french B1bis tanks to which a flame thrower has been added.

Also, they mounted pak40 AT guns on Lorraine artillery tractors, making the marder I, encountered by US troops in Normandy.

German vehicles were used by french forces, but by the free french forces. The french army was probably the last to have operational panthers !



Jim, some of these people were eager to apply nazi rules... and they were braught to court after the war.

O.K., I was afraid of that. My old eyes where failing me again......I'm officially embarassed.

BTW, Hollowpoint. That link you mentioned is where I got my 'tow cable' photo from.