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questions about sheman m4a1?
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 06:38 PM UTC
I need some help with this pic I found on the internet. I believe its a sherman m4a1 75mm, looks like this pic is from Italy (Sicily maybe). I cant make out any vehicle recogonition. I want to use my italeri m4A1 an try to recreate this in an diorama. My questions is what type turrent and what is the highlighted item, it isnt a travel lock. Any help will be appreciated. thanks
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 07:00 PM UTC
Hi Robert
Prepare for some bad news....
You'll need to do a lot of work or buy a lot of resin to convert the Italeri M4A1 to the tank in your picture. The pictured tank has the earlier small-hatch hull and low bustle turret and also the soft-edged 1 piece nose, none of which feature in the Italeri kit. So you'lll need to spend money with Formations getting resin parts or look for the old Dragon M4A1 to get something looking like the pic.
Probably was taken in Italy, judging by the sign in the background (and also the wine container on the trackguard).
Finally, to end on a positive note, the frame is the guard for the siren.
David
Prepare for some bad news....
You'll need to do a lot of work or buy a lot of resin to convert the Italeri M4A1 to the tank in your picture. The pictured tank has the earlier small-hatch hull and low bustle turret and also the soft-edged 1 piece nose, none of which feature in the Italeri kit. So you'lll need to spend money with Formations getting resin parts or look for the old Dragon M4A1 to get something looking like the pic.
Probably was taken in Italy, judging by the sign in the background (and also the wine container on the trackguard).
Finally, to end on a positive note, the frame is the guard for the siren.
David
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 07:00 PM UTC
Hi Robert: In 1/35, the Italeri M4A1 is not correct for the tank you've pictured. This is an earlier production 75mm small hatch type M4A1. Italeri's kit depicts one of the later production 76mm armed "big" hatch type vehicles.
The most equivalent 1/35 plastic kit is DML 6048. That angled bar on the glacis there was a protection guard for the tank's siren (which is missing on this example)
By the way, it's "turret" and not "turrent".
HTH
RC
The most equivalent 1/35 plastic kit is DML 6048. That angled bar on the glacis there was a protection guard for the tank's siren (which is missing on this example)
By the way, it's "turret" and not "turrent".
HTH
RC
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 07:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Robert
Prepare for some bad news....
You'll need to do a lot of work or buy a lot of resin to convert the Italeri M4A1 to the tank in your picture. The pictured tank has the earlier small-hatch hull and low bustle turret and also the soft-edged 1 piece nose, none of which feature in the Italeri kit. So you'lll need to spend money with Formations getting resin parts or look for the old Dragon M4A1 to get something looking like the pic.
Probably was taken in Italy, judging by the sign in the background (and also the wine container on the trackguard).
Finally, to end on a positive note, the frame is the guard for the siren.
David
Thanks David, i'm used to bad news, LOL. I guess i can go on ebay and just purchase the Dragon model.
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 07:45 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Robert: In 1/35, the Italeri M4A1 is not correct for the tank you've pictured. This is an earlier production 75mm small hatch type M4A1. Italeri's kit depicts one of the later production 76mm armed "big" hatch type vehicles.
The most equivalent 1/35 plastic kit is DML 6048. That angled bar on the glacis there was a protection guard for the tank's siren (which is missing on this example)
By the way, it's "turret" and not "turrent".
HTH
RC
Thanks Roy, sorry for the mis-spell. Do you know what the type turret?
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 08:45 PM UTC
Hi Robt: The picture shows the normal 75mm gun turret. The Italeri M4A1 kit has the later T23 76mm gun turret. Quite different.
If you obtain the DML kit, you should be fine. DML M4A1 75mm Early, kit 6048. If you want to go whole hog, then get the better resin hull from Formations. Several companies make a better 75mm gun early turret than what's provided in the DML kit.
HTH
If you obtain the DML kit, you should be fine. DML M4A1 75mm Early, kit 6048. If you want to go whole hog, then get the better resin hull from Formations. Several companies make a better 75mm gun early turret than what's provided in the DML kit.
HTH
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 10:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Robt: The picture shows the normal 75mm gun turret. The Italeri M4A1 kit has the later T23 76mm gun turret. Quite different.
If you obtain the DML kit, you should be fine. DML M4A1 75mm Early, kit 6048. If you want to go whole hog, then get the better resin hull from Formations. Several companies make a better 75mm gun early turret than what's provided in the DML kit.
HTH
Thanks, I think what i am going to do is swap out the m4A1 turret in the italeri kit with the tamiya m4a3 creating a large-hatched M4A1. would this be a correct D Day sherman?
hogarth
Joined: June 02, 2006
KitMaker: 672 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 10:56 PM UTC
Big Hatch shermans....
yes, these were used around D-Day. Most seem to have been duplex drive tanks.
Personally, I'd go with the Italeri 75mm turret, since it is already properly "keyed" to fit into the M4A1 hull, and then you can use the 76mm turret on the A3 hull (the Italeri "Marines M4" would be your source) to make an M4A3 76w. Also, the Italeri 75mm turret has the correct sized loader's hatch. The Tamiya one is too big.
Rob
yes, these were used around D-Day. Most seem to have been duplex drive tanks.
Personally, I'd go with the Italeri 75mm turret, since it is already properly "keyed" to fit into the M4A1 hull, and then you can use the 76mm turret on the A3 hull (the Italeri "Marines M4" would be your source) to make an M4A3 76w. Also, the Italeri 75mm turret has the correct sized loader's hatch. The Tamiya one is too big.
Rob
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2007 - 12:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Big Hatch shermans....
yes, these were used around D-Day. Most seem to have been duplex drive tanks.
Personally, I'd go with the Italeri 75mm turret, since it is already properly "keyed" to fit into the M4A1 hull, and then you can use the 76mm turret on the A3 hull (the Italeri "Marines M4" would be your source) to make an M4A3 76w. Also, the Italeri 75mm turret has the correct sized loader's hatch. The Tamiya one is too big.
Rob
Thanks Rob.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
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Posted: Friday, March 16, 2007 - 05:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks, I think what i am going to do is swap out the m4A1 turret in the italeri kit with the tamiya m4a3 creating a large-hatched M4A1. would this be a correct D Day sherman?
Large-hatch cast hulls with 75 mm gun turrets were extremely rare, and their very existence was denied until a few years ago. They generally had thickened castings corresponding to the applique armor patches on welded hulls, and most (if not all) were DD amphibians.
Small hatch hulls were pretty much universal for 75mm M4A1's, and would have ordinarily had low-bustle turrets, either with or without the pistol port on the left rear (mid-1943 turrets did not have it). They might have had applique armor on the right turret front as the tank in your picture does, though later tanks had an integral thickened area in the casting instead (and also the later M34A1 gun mount with wider shield).
Round one-piece transmission housing was most common, though machines built in late 1943 might have the sharp-nosed housing as seen in the Italeri kit. Suspension switched to the raised return roller arm bogie (as seen in the Italeri kit) in the fall of 1943 at most plants.
If you want to do the tank in the picture, get the older Dragon kit.
Also, the metal doodad in the photo is the guard for the siren, which the vehicle's crew have dismounted for safekeeping.
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2007 - 07:58 AM UTC
i decided to go ahead and build OOB, i was stuck at work pulling a double shift and somehow managed to complete the kit. only thing left is paint and weathering. since i built this model at work does this make me a professional now? btw, my first attempt at a sherman, i will post picks asap.
jowady
Joined: June 12, 2006
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 683 posts
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 683 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2007 - 11:23 AM UTC
[quote]
I think that DML is getting ready to re-release the M4A1. With that kit the whole thing is do-able. The real tank also appears to have the steel chevron track (T54?) available from RHPS, the kit comes (IIRC) with rubber chevron track.
John
Quoted Text
Hi Robert
Thanks David, i'm used to bad news, LOL. I guess i can go on ebay and just purchase the Dragon model.
I think that DML is getting ready to re-release the M4A1. With that kit the whole thing is do-able. The real tank also appears to have the steel chevron track (T54?) available from RHPS, the kit comes (IIRC) with rubber chevron track.
John
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
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Posted: Friday, March 16, 2007 - 05:05 PM UTC
Hi Robert: finishing the Italeri M4A1 -- congratulations! One pretty glaring item to correct on it is to add some putty to the step on the gun tube -- or replace it with a metal one. Also be careful about the stiff Italeri vinyl tracks -- make sure you glue the suspension in place to remove the rocking of the bogie arms. All 12 roadwheels should be flat.
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2007 - 09:36 PM UTC
[quote]
thanks john, sounds like a buy to me. would afv club have the T54 as well in the rubber band type? not to crazy about indy tracks. i noticed on the italeri kit the tracks was the rubber block style, not sure if that was accurrent or not.
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHi Robert
Thanks David, i'm used to bad news, LOL. I guess i can go on ebay and just purchase the Dragon model.
I think that DML is getting ready to re-release the M4A1. With that kit the whole thing is do-able. The real tank also appears to have the steel chevron track (T54?) available from RHPS, the kit comes (IIRC) with rubber chevron track.
John
thanks john, sounds like a buy to me. would afv club have the T54 as well in the rubber band type? not to crazy about indy tracks. i noticed on the italeri kit the tracks was the rubber block style, not sure if that was accurrent or not.
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2007 - 09:44 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Robert: finishing the Italeri M4A1 -- congratulations! One pretty glaring item to correct on it is to add some putty to the step on the gun tube -- or replace it with a metal one. Also be careful about the stiff Italeri vinyl tracks -- make sure you glue the suspension in place to remove the rocking of the bogie arms. All 12 roadwheels should be flat.
the italeri vinyle tracks are very stiff, i read that placing them in warm water will help loosen then up a bit, havent tried it yet. does that work?
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 3,791 posts
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Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 02:02 PM UTC
Hi Robert
Getting back to your first post, I found the same colour photo in a book at the weekend, and the M4A1 belongs to this unit
http://www.752ndtank.com/
David
Getting back to your first post, I found the same colour photo in a book at the weekend, and the M4A1 belongs to this unit
http://www.752ndtank.com/
David
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 06:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Robert
Getting back to your first post, I found the same colour photo in a book at the weekend, and the M4A1 belongs to this unit
http://www.752ndtank.com/
David
Thanks David, very helpful link. What I read was that this unit received used and restored M4's and M4A1's and markings were either ignored altogether or crudely done... "Since the vehicles were often sourced from other units and the vehicles were pretty well worn, the markings were often painted over prior to delivery to 752nd. So during the combat period when tank losses needed to be very quickly replaced, there was simply not enough time to paint the vehicles with the proper markings before they entered combat. And when they finally were marked, they were apparently done so by first or sometimes second echelon maintenance crews, which resulted in some rather crude and non-standardized markings. This, of course, is what makes these vehicles such an interesting study today."
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 3,791 posts
Armorama: 2,798 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 06:38 PM UTC
Now that I've looked closely at your pic, if you look just below the siren guard you can see the unit identifying code 5A-752 (which should be followed by a triangle to indicate a tank unit. The 5A is Fifth Army of course.
David
David
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 08:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Now that I've looked closely at your pic, if you look just below the siren guard you can see the unit identifying code 5A-752 (which should be followed by a triangle to indicate a tank unit. The 5A is Fifth Army of course.
David
Great eye David. Their seems to be some writting on the side of the hull, maybe the tank's nick name. either that or I am seeing things.
jowady
Joined: June 12, 2006
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
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KitMaker: 1,027 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 19, 2007 - 08:07 AM UTC
Sorry, AFAIK AFV only makes T49 (three bar cleat) in rubber band for the V V S S shermans. The RHPS isn't too hard to put together, just sort of boring. While you can technically assemble them without glue, I always use some canopy glue, the track remains fairly flexible. The old Tamiya M4A4 late (not the current one) had (IIRC) the t54 track, but you would have to cut off the end grousers, a fairly simple procedure, and then you just put that side as the "inside" edge of the runs. Accurate Armour makes some resin "steel Chevron" which I have never used, you get lengths of it and heat and bend it around the suspension.
John
John
752ndTank
Joined: August 03, 2003
KitMaker: 31 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 19, 2007 - 08:07 AM UTC
Hi guys,
This photo is near and dear to me. It is a mid-production 75mm M4A1 of my father's 3rd Platoon of B Company of the 752nd Tank Battalion. It was taken in July 1944 on the road to Pisa. Several men in this photo can be identified as my dad's buddies, and my father appears in another color photo from this same series. The shots were obviously staged for the photographer. This same photo adorns the cover of Steve Zaloga's book "US Armored Units in the North African and Italian Campaigns" but it is incorrectly captioned as a 1st Armored vehicle. The 752 markings can be seen on the transmission cover, and the men are definitely men from the 752nd independent tank battalion.
As noted in my website, the 752nd tanks tended to be very sparse and non-regulation in their use of markings. For more info, see my website at http://www.752ndtank.com
Cheers,
Bob
This photo is near and dear to me. It is a mid-production 75mm M4A1 of my father's 3rd Platoon of B Company of the 752nd Tank Battalion. It was taken in July 1944 on the road to Pisa. Several men in this photo can be identified as my dad's buddies, and my father appears in another color photo from this same series. The shots were obviously staged for the photographer. This same photo adorns the cover of Steve Zaloga's book "US Armored Units in the North African and Italian Campaigns" but it is incorrectly captioned as a 1st Armored vehicle. The 752 markings can be seen on the transmission cover, and the men are definitely men from the 752nd independent tank battalion.
As noted in my website, the 752nd tanks tended to be very sparse and non-regulation in their use of markings. For more info, see my website at http://www.752ndtank.com
Cheers,
Bob
rjeffs2501
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Monday, March 19, 2007 - 07:39 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi guys,
This photo is near and dear to me. It is a mid-production 75mm M4A1 of my father's 3rd Platoon of B Company of the 752nd Tank Battalion. It was taken in July 1944 on the road to Pisa. Several men in this photo can be identified as my dad's buddies, and my father appears in another color photo from this same series. The shots were obviously staged for the photographer. This same photo adorns the cover of Steve Zaloga's book "US Armored Units in the North African and Italian Campaigns" but it is incorrectly captioned as a 1st Armored vehicle. The 752 markings can be seen on the transmission cover, and the men are definitely men from the 752nd independent tank battalion.
As noted in my website, the 752nd tanks tended to be very sparse and non-regulation in their use of markings. For more info, see my website at http://www.752ndtank.com
Cheers,
Bob
Thanks Bob, I really enjoy the web-site and thanks for all of the info you sent me.
Robert
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