Hi
I am wanting to make a dio around the following passage from a book entitled 'Why the Allies Won' by Richard Overy. It refers to the battle of Kursk:



Therefore my idea is to have a Tiger 1 which has just knocked out a T34 at very close range and a Soviet M3 Lee has 'pulled alongside but has run out of shells, therefore the crew have dismounted, three have jumped onto the tiger and three have gone to try and help the unfotunate crew of the T34. Two of the Soviets on teh Tiger have prised open the commander's and gunner's hatches and are about to drop in grenades, the other one is kneeling in between the two drivers' hatches.
Here is a rough sketch I have made ( I will be the first to admit I am no Artist :-) :-) )


Any help with layout etc. is much appreciated, also do you hink I should add some infantry figures, or maybe cosacks into the dio??
Please note that this is only in the planning and researching stages and with my stash waiting and very limited building time it wil be a while until this takes shape. Nevertheless any advice or help is much appreciated.
Cheers. Nick :-)

Nice story, I like that you tie it back to an actual historical reference.

I don't know why the T1 wouldn't have taken out the Lee if it approached from the front. I would put the Lee more at a perpendicular angle to the T1 or even behind, maybe behind a hedge row.

I agree with Scott about the angle of the Lee. Perhaps you could show that the Lee actually rammed and disabled (broken track or bogie) the Tiger prior to the crew members dismounting. With the tanks meshed together the Tiger wouldn't be able to use the main gun for anything and being disabled, an easier target for the crew.

The only flaws I can think of in the scenario are that ( and this is conjecture on my part)
1)the Tiger should have other tanks accompanying that would use their machine guns on the Russian crew the moment they exposed themselves.
2) I don't know how quickly that you can 'prise' open a hatch that has been secured from the inside on a tank without crowbars and a cutting torch.

Good concept though, and I think you can pull it off with some further detail.
Cheers,
Charles

Hi Nick ,

That is a great idea, However, L agree with Charles, the logical thing that the Lee crew would have done is ram the Tiger in an attempt to rendered it inoperiable , Ramming was quite common in tank engagments, For more information have a look at "Irish Volunteers in the Second World War" by Richard Doherty, he recounts how Captian John Gorman (Irish Guards) rammed a king Tiger with his Sherman during operation Goodwood in Normandy if you're interested,

It might be an Idea to rewind the scene a few seconds and have the Russians springing toward the Tiger with grenades and Molatov Coctails ready , while the dazed German commander attempts to close his hatch or draw his weapon... just a couple of ideas to help you develop your diorama feel free to ignore,

Best of luck with the project

Jerry

Hi guys
Thanks for the help




yeah, I see what you mean and it does mention in the book that they rammed the German tanks.


Would the commander have his head out of his hatch then even in the middle of a battle??
Any more advice from anyone Re. infantry
Cheers.Nick

Are you referring to the three who I had positioned by the T34, I was thinking that they could have been concealed in the long grass?
Nick

I was referring to any Russian that exited their tank during the battle and particularly if they jumped onto the Tiger.




I have read accounts where the commander would leave the hatch open as it was very difficult to see what was going on through the periscopes and armored glass vision slots. That being said I doubt that he had his head above the armor any longer than was necessary to make a quick judgment.
Sorry I don't have the reference available right now.

Cheers,
Charles

Nick,

According to accounts I have read German tank comanders tended to enter battle with at least their head out of the cupola, better visabilty and communication with infantry supporting, they would button up under direct fire, possible some ex-service guys would be kind enough to add any details of tactics , there is a lot of photograph evedience of commanders unbuttoned in combat in Russia. hope this helps ,

Best,


Jerry

I like the ramming concept. Also if you can keep the story to a central area of interest (the Russian tank ramming the Tiger) then you will better pull off a good story-concept diorama. As most dioramists will tell you it's best to focus on one thing than try to have a bunch of things going on at once.

Just a thought but if Kursk had any hill-like or rough terrain how about the Lee catching the Tiger off-gaurd (while it was busy hunting another target) and somehow using the terrain to basically run right over the front off the Tiger thus damaging the real threat (its 88mm gun). You could call it "Kursk Cat Declawed". :-)

Cheers,
Jim

'Act of Desperation' would also be a nice title.

;)

Hi guys
@ Jerry. Ok Thanks, I just wasnt sure if they would be worried about getting sniped or something!!!!
@ Jim. They are cool ideas (and names :-) ). As you can see (in the new layout pic below) I have kind of done that, but used a hedge and the T34 it has just destroyed as the 'distraction'...

The new layout, the M3 Lee has burst out from behind a hedgerow and rammed the Tiger 1 in the side. The crew will be disembarking to attack teh Tiger kind of like is shown in this photo ( I know the guys aren't Russian!! :-) )

Let me know what you think. I am not sure what to do about the big open space to the left of the Lee (maybe have crew coming out the left side, but then what about the rest of the space, Any suggestions??:-?)Cheers. Nick

Nick,

idea's looking better all the time.
Don't use a hedge however.
Firstly it looks too symmetrical running from side to side parallel with the base.
I would use bushes and low trees sporadically placed.
Its not a push to believe the Lee approached from the blind side as the Tiger was focusing attention on the T-34. Especially if the Lee came from about the 2:00 position if the rear of the Tiger is 12:00. Tanks being all over the battlefield during the Kursk battles coming from this angle wouldn't be impossible.
Since the time freeze is after the Lee rams the Tiger you might consider the barrel of the 88mm main gun hitting the side of the Lee as if the Tiger crew swung the turret around immediately after the ramming only to find that the gun tube just hits against the side of the Lee turret and they can't possibly get a shot.

Cheers, Charles

Hi Charles
Ok, I'll get rid of the hedge, I like your idea on the 88 gun. Nick

Great idea. I am looking forward to see it develop even further.

I do not think you should add any cossacks. Cossacks attacking Tigers - especially at Kursk - is more or less a propaganda myth IMO.

The whole scene should be angled a little bit to ensure that neither of the tanks are parallel to any of the sides of the diorama. Alternatively make the diorama on a rounded base cut to fit the scene.

Just my 2 cents.

Looks good so far,
I agree with Jesper that you shouldn't have any tank sides parallel with the edges of the dio base. Make sure you angle them all to make it a bit more realistic looking!

James

Considering the scene that you are depicting, I think a round base would work perfectly here. I normally use round bases on all my dioramas so that the scene can be viewed from any angle.
You can purchase cheaply pre-cut rounds of 3/4 plywood at any major hardware store such as Home Depot, Lowes or Orchards Supply. 12" diameter to 36"
I would think that your diorama would fit nicely on a 16" dia.

Check out some of my dios in my gallery if you are curious as to what a round base might look like.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net//features/1279

https://gallery.kitmaker.net/data/18646/MVC-002F2.JPG

Cheers,
Charles

Hi guys
I like the idea of a round base.
@ Charles, Awesome dios mate.
Cheers.Nick