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Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
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Vietnam vhl codes
plavi
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Paris, France
Joined: March 23, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 09:03 PM UTC
Hi All,

I'm planning to do up a decal sheet with vehicle registration codes for my Vietnam tanks and softskins. I have an old OKI 5000 printer I want to use its a called ALPS5000 in the States.

I have a rough idea about the codification system for each group of vehicle. I looked at numerous photographs and came up with a list for each vehicle whether Army or Marines.
For example Army M113 ACAVs where sporting this kind of registration
US ARMY 12AXXXXX, US ARMY 12BXXXXX,CXXXXX,DOXX,ERXX, FAXX, 13DXXX etc.
I don't know the logic for this. Can some of you knowledgeable people help me find a site where this is explained.
I also downloaded some Stencil fonts but I don't know if they are suitable. If the original font is out there that would be great to know where to find it.

Thank you for your input.

Plavi
Beast
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Michigan, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:12 AM UTC
This is about the best explenation. http://www.collect.com/interest/article.asp?Pub=MV&id=9591 That is straight from a site dedicated to restoring 1/1 vehicles. The big thing to remember is that the lettering system changed in 1968.
plavi
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Paris, France
Joined: March 23, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 09:52 PM UTC
thank you very much for this.

Cheers
stephan79
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 25, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 09:40 PM UTC
I would love to read this article, but it seems that meanwhile the link went dead.
Does anybody know where this article can be found, or what the original source would be?
I tried to find references on that topic myself, but seems like I couldn't figure out the right search keys

many thanks in advance
Stephan
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
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Posted: Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 11:15 PM UTC
Hi Stephan
You'll find some info about markings on Olive-drab.com :
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_mvg_markings.php
You can also check out M38A1.com for early Vietnam-era markings...
For modern US Army markings, just take a look at Pete "Epi" Becerra's in-depth article in the feature section :
https://armorama.kitmaker.net//features/113

HTH
Frenchy

CombatKrieg
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Singapore / 新加坡
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Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 - 12:52 AM UTC
How do you guys get decal paper and how do you figure out the exact size when scaled down?
stephan79
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 25, 2008
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Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 - 02:39 AM UTC
Thanks Frenchy - I think those are the only references I came up with when searching for that topic. But at least this was the last excuse I needed for buying Doyle's Standard Catalog of U.S. Military Vehicles (just ordered my copy at amazon ) - maybe that apendix will help.
Would still be nice reading this article, hope somebody will remember the source.

Russel, if it is just for the registration numbers, I would rather use dry transfers, PE stencils or recombine numerals from an original decal sheet. For the size I would guess you first print out different font sizes on paper and see which will come out the right size.
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 - 04:59 AM UTC
Stephen-- do you want an explanation for the registration numbers or the unit markings? Registration numbers are on the side of the vehcile (M113, M-60, etc) while the Unit markings are on the front and rear of a given vehicle.
DJ
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 - 05:34 AM UTC
To make things really interesting, most (if not all) Army tactical vehicles have a serial number, a registration number and a bumper number (sometimes referred to as an admin number). Supply types track it by the serial number. Maintenance types use both the bumper numer and serial number. Get into a vehicle fender bender in the field, and the MPs want the registration number.

I believe the registration number is the only one that doesn't change. The serial number can change if the vehicle is sent to be rebuilt, the bumper number changes frequently as the vehicle changes hands from unit to unit.

While this is a WW2 number site, it has some information that may pertain to Vietnam era vehicle markings: http://www.lonesentry.com/panzer/jeep-markings.html
stephan79
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 25, 2008
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Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 - 06:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

do you want an explanation for the registration numbers or the unit markings?


From the first two posts I hoped that the article in question would explain the rationale behind registration numbers. Difficult enough, and on many pictures they are just impossible to read.

But of course I would be eager to know if anybody could recommend good reading on unit markings as well. Weren't unit markings quite arbitrary when it came to size, style and lettering?

Would the bumper number refer to the number of the vehicle within it's unit? Like A-5 or B-11?
Whiskey6
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North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 - 07:17 AM UTC
Marine vehicles (tanks, LVTs, engineeer equipment and softskins, etc.) during the Vietnam period had both vehicle numbers (i.e.: USMC 123456) and tactical markings. The vehicle numbers stayed with the vehicle and tied it to its maintenance record. The tactical markings identified the unti to which the vehicle belonged.

The link below gives a pretty good synopsis of the tac markings for Marine tanks.

http://www.usmcvta.org/Word%20Doc/Tac_Marks_USMC_Vn_Tanks.doc

I will continue to search for a good resource for the tac marks of non-tank vehicles, but have not found a good one yet. I may have some pics at home that I can scan to at least show examples.

Semper Fi,
Dave
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 - 08:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

do you want an explanation for the registration numbers or the unit markings?


From the first two posts I hoped that the article in question would explain the rationale behind registration numbers. Difficult enough, and on many pictures they are just impossible to read.

But of course I would be eager to know if anybody could recommend good reading on unit markings as well. Weren't unit markings quite arbitrary when it came to size, style and lettering?

Would the bumper number refer to the number of the vehicle within it's unit? Like A-5 or B-11?



Okay. During the Vietnam era, we placed several markings on tactical vehicles. I will use an M113 assigned to an mechanized infantry battalion as an example. This vehicle would belong to Alpha Company, 1st Platoon fourth vehicle of four in the platoon. On the sides in large size block letters and numbers were: 114 (first company, first platoon, fourth vehicle). The left side front bumper would be something like this 3 I 1/7 IN (3rd Infantry Division, First Battalion, 7th Infantry Regiment). On the right front bumper would be A 14. These would be reversed on the rear bumper. The bumper markings along with registration numbers were all in white paint on OD. We dropped the large side numbers when we camouflaged the tracks in 1972. After we went camo, they were in black over whatever color hit the bumpers. Despite combat in Vietnam, we pretty much stuck to white on OD. I know you will find examples of black on OD, but generally we used the white.
Trust this assist your efforts.
DJ
stephan79
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 25, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 12:36 AM UTC
Thank you Dave, this reference is really helpful. Somehow the Marines' vehicle markings seem easier. That multi-digit registration number following "USMC" - does it convey additional information, or is it just an inventory number?

Thank you DJ, I had only a vague idea about those codes. So to do it realistically, one had to keep the numbers low, as there is only a limited number of vehicles to a platoon and of platoons to a company etc. What would be a typical range of numbers for those three indicators in that era?

Actually I never came across a picture with black markings in Vietnam (apart from gun trucks, of course) but maybe that info would get lost on low resolution pictures. What would have happened to the registration numbers in those rare cases, were they also painted over in black?
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 03:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Thank you DJ, I had only a vague idea about those codes. So to do it realistically, one had to keep the numbers low, as there is only a limited number of vehicles to a platoon and of platoons to a company etc. What would be a typical range of numbers for those three indicators in that era?

Actually I never came across a picture with black markings in Vietnam (apart from gun trucks, of course) but maybe that info would get lost on low resolution pictures. What would have happened to the registration numbers in those rare cases, were they also painted over in black?



All the numbers were over printed in black for a long time. Regardless of color the markings took, at the time, there were four M-113s in a platoon of a mechanized infantry company. We had three rifle platoons and a weapon platoon. So, the first platoon's vehicles were 11,12, 13 and 14. The second platoon had 21, 22, 23,and 24. The third had 31, 32, 33, and 34. The commander of alpha company would have a 113 with A-66 as the bumper markings. The number sequence differed for a tank company. At the time, we had 17 tanks in a company. The commander was in A-66 or B-66 or C-66. His executive officer would be in A-65, etc. The three platoons would have A-11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 and so on as in the mechanized numbering system.
DJ
Whiskey6
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North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 03:39 AM UTC
Stephan -

"That multi-digit registration number following "USMC" - does it convey additional information, or is it just an inventory number?"

If my memory serves me correctly, it is the vehicle serial number and is used to tie the vehicle to inventory and maintenance records. If the vehicle were reassigned from one unit to another, the vehicle number would remain the same, but the "tac marks" (tactical markings) would be changed to the tac mark of the new unit. Along with the vehicle, the maintenance records of the vehicle would also be transferred to the new unit.

I would also note that the tac marks are also used on the "mount-out boxes", field desks, etc. of a unit. That's how we used to keep all of our "ash-and-trash" sorted out in the field, especially on the beach during amphibious ops.

Semper Fi,
Dave
casailor
Joined: June 22, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:03 AM UTC
Hi Guys,
Another item not brought up is that vehicle numbers were even and associated trailer numbers were the next odd number. I drove a 5ton Dump (m51) (my memory may be a little off on exact numbers) the driver's side front and rear was 4ENGR (4th Combat Engineer Battalion) and the passenger side front and rear was C214 (C company, 2nd platoon, 1st squad, 4th vehicle) and my trailer (expandible pole trailer in my case) was C215
Rick Smith
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 05:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Guys,
Another item not brought up is that vehicle numbers were even and associated trailer numbers were the next odd number. I drove a 5ton Dump (m51) (my memory may be a little off on exact numbers) the driver's side front and rear was 4ENGR (4th Combat Engineer Battalion) and the passenger side front and rear was C214 (C company, 2nd platoon, 1st squad, 4th vehicle) and my trailer (expandible pole trailer in my case) was C215
Rick Smith



Rick-- I would assume each tactical unit had some variations. To use your trailer example, we used T6 to designate the 1/4 ton trailer pulled by the M151A2 A-6.
DJ
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 06:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi Guys,
Another item not brought up is that vehicle numbers were even and associated trailer numbers were the next odd number. I drove a 5ton Dump (m51) (my memory may be a little off on exact numbers) the driver's side front and rear was 4ENGR (4th Combat Engineer Battalion) and the passenger side front and rear was C214 (C company, 2nd platoon, 1st squad, 4th vehicle) and my trailer (expandible pole trailer in my case) was C215
Rick Smith



Rick-- I would assume each tactical unit had some variations. To use your trailer example, we used T6 to designate the 1/4 ton trailer pulled by the M151A2 A-6.
DJ

And I've see trailers designated A-6T, to use your number example.
casailor
Joined: June 22, 2007
KitMaker: 165 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 07:41 AM UTC
Hi Guys,
It could be, as an Engineer Company our trailers would often be used with different vehicles. In your case it looks like your trailer was permanently assigned to the Unit Commmander's Jeep. We had Pole trailers, Generator Trailers, Compressor Trailers, two or three types of Tool Trailers and would mix and match depending on mission requirements.
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 07:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Guys,
It could be, as an Engineer Company our trailers would often be used with different vehicles. In your case it looks like your trailer was permanently assigned to the Unit Commmander's Jeep. We had Pole trailers, Generator Trailers, Compressor Trailers, two or three types of Tool Trailers and would mix and match depending on mission requirements.



Welcome to the United States Army where everyone does the same thing but differently.
stephan79
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 25, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 03:33 AM UTC
Thank you all for that helpful input!
One question came to my mind concerning DJ's M113 example:
Would that commander's vehicle bear any other distinctive features setting it apart from the rest of the tanks in the unit, in markings or otherwise?
casailor
Joined: June 22, 2007
KitMaker: 165 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 04:03 AM UTC
Hi Guys,
Commanders with big egos often added things to make their vehicle distinctive, rank plates doors things like that. It was officially discouraged since it allowed the bad guys to easily target unit commanders. The easist way to identify a command vehicle was usually it had two or more radio antennas.
Rick Smith
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 12:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Guys,
Commanders with big egos often added things to make their vehicle distinctive, rank plates doors things like that. It was officially discouraged since it allowed the bad guys to easily target unit commanders. The easist way to identify a command vehicle was usually it had two or more radio antennas.
Rick Smith



Well, it was not my ego that placed two receiver/transmitters in my tank and jeep. You have to speak to the company commanders and the brigade commander. I do not know how you get around that one. I had a name plate on my jeep which was an admin vehicle. I was proud of being their commander and I wanted people to know it.
DJ
stephan79
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Hessen, Germany
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Posted: Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 12:21 AM UTC
I sure didn't mean to spark dissent with that last question, and I think everyone will agree that it is a difference adorning an admin vehicle and drawing attention to a certain fighting vehicle in combat. More than it would receive anyway, because I guess any observer would associate additional radio antennas with higher priority.
Generally, is it save to assume that with a senior officer on board the crews wouldn't have been at liberty to add that many of the slogans and drawings seen on sides and gun shields?
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 08:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I sure didn't mean to spark dissent with that last question, and I think everyone will agree that it is a difference adorning an admin vehicle and drawing attention to a certain fighting vehicle in combat. More than it would receive anyway, because I guess any observer would associate additional radio antennas with higher priority.
Generally, is it save to assume that with a senior officer on board the crews wouldn't have been at liberty to add that many of the slogans and drawings seen on sides and gun shields?



We joke here a lot, part of process....
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