I need some advice from the Shermie gang. I'm trying to find a reference Showing a firefly with open spoke bogie wheels. Have I succeeded?

Is this range hulk and old firefly? It seems to have the counterweight and all the other goodies the Brits added on....

Ant analysis and discussion would be most appreciated..

http://users.telenet.be/M7.Priest/foto/sherman10.jpg
http://users.telenet.be/M7.Priest/foto/Sherman10b.jpg

Thanks in advance

Steve

Hi Steve,

This looks to me like it might be an M4 Firefly Ic where they used the boby of an M4 and put the Firefly Turret on top. That said I am most probably wrong lol, lol.

Al

Yeah I think Alan's right.

On the sherman10.jpg (with the left side of the turret) it seems to me that the rim of the loader's hatch is square. As far as I know it was the special for the Fireflys, no other version had square hatch.

I'm more inclined to think its a Firefly VC. This is based on the "squashed" shape of the antenna pot and the two plates at the rear of the turret splash rail. Plus it retains the three piece trany housing, the few shots I've seen of a IC usually have the later cast type.

Dear Chaps

I have to agree with Alan - it's a Ic, as per the recent (ish) Tamiya 1/48 kit.

We had a discussion about the accuracy of the Tamiya kit and possibilities of converting it to a II Korpus tank in Italy c1944-45. From what I see, the wreck/ target is short enough (in hull) to be a Ic and has some of the cupola/ hatch peculiarities found on that mark. It's interesting that this this example retains it's pistol port - the II Korpus example I still hope to (one day) make Rycerz I doesn't, although it does have the Churchill/ Cromwell-type commander's hatch as per this photo. Of course, I could be completly wrong - no doubt someone will tell me about that!

As an aside, I'd be very interested to know the location of this target - Salisbury Plain? It looks in remarkable condition - most of the Centurion hulks around Warminster are in much worse condition than this!

Cheers

Karol

It's an M4A4 VC. As Geoff says the plates at the end of the turret splash are the indicators and also look at the distance between the bogies.
There are photos of Firefly Vcs with open spoked wheels in the Polsish Sherman book 2 and in the new Concord book on British Shermans there are pics of Fireflies with a mix of solid and open spoked wheels.

Hi Pat,

I thoguht the boggies looked very close together which is what made me think it was an M4. Also you don't see that many with side and cheek armour, but as I said I may well be wrong.

Al

Like Pat and Geoff have said, the turret ring splash plate and the distance btn the bogies clearly IDs this as an Firefly VC.

Of note are the open spoke roadwheels and the T41 tracks -- I've never seen either of these on an M4A4 chassis. Maybe the tracks were a postwar refit -- but the open spoke wheels? That's a new one. Even the earliest M4A4 factory pictures show the typical pressed roadwheels (a common feature with tanks built at Detroit Tank ar senal)

The space between the bogie wheels certainly looks like that of a M4A4 Sherman V.
It's possible that this particular vehicle was from an early batch with spoked wheels.
Cheers

jjumbo

Update:

Here's the original site with tons of photos of these wrecks.

http://users.telenet.be/M7.Priest/Wracks.htm

These appear to be vehicles given to the Dutch Army after the war and are now on a target range somewhere in Holland (my ability to read Dutch is poor).

This may explain the "mix and match" of wheels and other components.

jjumbo

Definately a Vc; key ID points in first photo are the Drain hole armoured cover in the rear of the turret splash ring, Flared Antenna Pot and the shape of the Hoods (no Kinks in the side).
In the Second Photo: Drain hole armoured cover in the rear of the turret splash ring, Spacing of bogies, No kinks in side of Hoods, No Armoured Radiator Cover which would be visible at this angle.

The NZ troops in Italy had applique on their Vcs and I'm sure others did too.
Cheers
Al

It's a Sherman VC Firefly. It's a Firefly hull, since it has the blanked-off machine gun position. The wheel spacing and the engine deck are also the M4A4 type. I wouldn't worry about the wheels and tracks. Tires wore out, and the wheels had to be removed periodically to vulcanize new rubber onto them. This didn't happen that often during the war because of the short time involved (Fireflies were only in combat about ten months), but in postwar service with secondary users, it needed to be done regularly, and there's no reason the tank had to get the same wheels back. Tracks were likewise an expendable item, and were replaced with whatever version was in stock.

well I guess




it clearly says on page 1



I know it's not much do be fussy about because you also might have been called American (USA)

ok, made my point
sherman did look to have strange track set up, but hey there's always a new tank/mod being found these days.
made it only more confusing , all those different types of sherman/hull combo's

See ya'll
Ps thanks for letting me know this site,(and I live 60km from there duuuuh)

Tha Pit

Yeah, sorry about that Tha Pit,
My mistake, I got too wrapped up in looking at the photos to notice that.
And yes, when I travelled through Europe, everyone thought I was American despite the Maple Leaf on my pack.
Cheers

jjumbo

I argee it is a Firefly Vc. Notice the angle of the rear hull armor and the length of the top of side aormor.

cheer