Really enjoyed reading through the "What if" discussions -- and have seen a fair amount of it on the E100. Browsing through the net, I came across the "E100 Krokodil". Have checked some available Spielberger / Jentz materials, but can't seem to find any reference to it. Was there really such a thing? I mean, was there a proposal / plan for it? Any info would be appreciated.

More on the Paper Panzers : saw that Fine Cast Models has quite a number of these as 1/76 kits. Would be good though if they can have it available on 1/35.

Hi Tat,
If thats what I think it is its a Stug variant on the E-100 chassis mounting I believe a 170mm gun, if it is this one you can get it in 1/35 as a conversion from New Connection, but its not cheap at 89 Euros.
New Connections website is Here

Hi Tat,

here are some nice pictures of the Krokodil:http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/artikel.php?id=982

Nils

Hmmmm, Krokodil or is that Aligator...

.........Aligator?

Thanks guys! -- I just wonder why there seems to be no mention of such in publications coming from Jentz / Spielberger. I guess that's what they meant when they said there are still lots of materials out there waiting to be discovered. First time I've seen this New Connections site -- thanks! Agree they come in quite expensive, most especially the resin ones from Azimut, Fine Cast, Cromwell, etc. Sure hope the likes of Dragon start to do these paper panzers and get it to market cheaper. The upcoming releases of Trumpeter is a good sign though. Hmmm, now I have to get someone who can translate the site that Nils mentioned. Cheers

Hi Tat,

let me translate it for you:
The guy wrote, that the idea for this thing came to him, after a modelbuilding friend
showed him his new bought conversion.
It was the resinconversion for the Krokodil -a drawingboard project from WWII.
Then the small wheels in his brain were working and after a short time he said:
"I can make it without the conversion." The rest was going very fast,
An E100 from DML as basic, taken from the resinmantlet the dates and made the mantlet complete from plasticsheet. Some glue and Revell color....then he finished thisd kit.

That is all, what he wrote there. But he made the upperhull also 100% by himself, I think?
I hope, you can imagine now, what was going on there.

Greetings,Nils

Thanks for the translation Nils. Went through some of the other models that he did -- they sure are quite unique, and I guess all of the conversions were scratchbuilt. Have taken a fancy on those "Paper Panzers" -- led me to buy the two Panzer Tracts issues on them. Right now am thinking of doing either the PZ VI 7.5cm VK30.01 H (looks like a PZ IV) or PZ IV Lang E. Just trying to figure out which parts I can cannibalize from my stash.

Tat, it was a pleasure to do this. I hope you understood everything?
Yeah, he has there really interesting versions of tanks, they never has been realized.
Now you want also to build paper panzers, terrific.
Have fun with it and nice greetings from Germany.

Nils

Actually, I told the same myself : "hmmm, I think I can build one of those with what's available...", when I was reading through Paper Panzers. Probably not as good as that modeller, but it should be worth the try. I guess that's the spirit of modelling -- get your creative juices working and build something to one's satisfaction. Well I really do enjoy reading through this forum -- thanks and all the best.

Tat,

If you have a decent spares box, your best bet is to take a copy of the new 1/25th Academy Jagdpanther for 50 rather 122 bucks and fit it's upper hull to a DML or Trumpeter E-100 chassis.

The two things that give away the science fiction aspects of this conversion for me are the gun and the 'innie' mantlet. There was indeed a considerable interest on the part of Hitler at the end of the war in creating a new super tank which could match what the Soviets were doing with the IS-3 and ISU-122/152 assault guns. Kind've a keeping up with the Joneskies rivalry thing.

As an element of this, both a 150mm and a 170mm KWK gun were considered for development but the size of the round would have meant the need for a mechanical assist on the rammer at least and probably two part ammo which essentially means a second loader for which there was simply not space.

With some measure of sanity check in mind, the WaPrue6 instead tested the 128mm gun on both M26 and IS-3 front glacis and found that the weapon would easily over penetrate both to well in excess of 2,400m which is where the available sights essentially stopped being useful for direct fire. Even the 88mm L71 was good out to 1,500m or so.

Hence the 150/170mm gun developments were dropped and without them, the Stugodil doesn't make a whole lot of sense (a Pupchen on an E-10 with a scaled Panzerfaust round would take out an IS-3 in most MOUT conditions, far more effectively, simply because even a waffentrager style manual traverse could could turn far more rapidly than the Krok could slew on it's tracks...).

The second problem is of course the monumental shot trap around the barrel mounting itself. Most Heer 1946 drawings of this Stug-

http://www.nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/fotosammlung/displayimage.php?album=25&pos=26

http://www.nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/fotosammlung/displayimage.php?album=25&pos=27

In fact show a fixed, projecting, mounting over which the mantlet fits rather closely. Like the E-10/25, only scaled up. This provides both a structural underpinning to support hte mass of the barrel (170mm is 6.6 inches, the same as the main armament of a light naval cruiser of the period) and to raise it up high enough to get sightline and ground clearance within the hull box.

The problem with the existing design (other than cutting in such a complex casted shape to a 200mm+ hull front on a manufacturing line pressed for time) is that even if an enemy round doesn't penetrate through it into the fighting compartment itself, any explosion in or around the center-mass of the plate would likely occur in this recess and both crack the armor and jam or disable the barrel elevation mechanism. Which is why the similar opening on the Jagdpanther is so much smaller.

Add to this the realization that the Stugs were always built cheap with the intent to be lost in numbers and designed to use fast maneuvering to get into and out of ambush situations and the notion that this monster is going to be useful as a Jagdpanzer just doesn't hold water. The barrel length alone would make it useless in most cities for instance and Hitler had basically decided to turn Germany into a series of independently held urban festungs while he waited on his nukes.

Having said all that, the look of the vehicle is cool in that overwhelmingly teutonic scaled sense of things and as a mobile field gun for direct fire operations (i.e. a traditional assault gun, not a tank hunter), it might have had some use, reducing towns and villages on the way back East.

But even then you'd have to mate it up with a 1,000hp turbocharged HL-230 that could somehow be fed enough diesel to keep it running. And the HL-230 turbo/direct injection model was also a good half a year or more from being production ready.


LEG

Thanks LEG, am impressed with the amount of research and thought you've put in. My my how time flies -- posted this back in 2007. I guess there's no need to scratch for me. Have seen the Krokodil in the Trumpeter catalogue -- a little more wait for the kit in plastic then. Cheers -- Tat

Actually, during the development of the E-100 whilst being slowly put together at Haustenbeck at low priority, it was already realized that the desire to put the 150 or 174mm gun in the E-100 turret would not be feasible, as the turretring would exceed the hull width. The hull width was limited by the loading profile for rail transport.

To resolve this, the idea was shifted from an E-100 with a rotating turret to one with a fixed casemate construction like the Stug. Therefore, the thing called Krokodil was in fact simply the end result of what the E-100 would become. Had it ever been completed.

Anybody seen hide or hair of the boxart for Trumpeter TSM-1596 Jagdpanzer E-100? I'm guessing that it's going to be out this year since it was initially 'futured' last...

Thanks- LEG

I see that Great Models is taking pre orders, they say it should be released sometime in September.

No. Not. Another. Over Gunned. Must. Have. Tank. . Must Have. 'Course still has that massive shottrap issue.