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Winter Voroshilovets
Naseby
Joined: October 15, 2010
KitMaker: 825 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 09, 2011 - 10:37 AM UTC
Hello members. In these days we have the 70th anniversary of the Battle of Moscow which was the first land battle in which the Wehrmacht was beaten. I decided to honour this with my next build. The Subject will be the 1/35 Voroshilovest tractor from Trumpeter. Im goin to build it as a towing vehicle for Katyusha rocket launcher attachen on a wooden carriage with skis. Im not avare if there was such combination ever used, but I want to portrait the Voroshilovets in a less usual way. I started today and managed to prepare all the small wheels.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 09, 2011 - 10:47 AM UTC
The Russians used what they had however they could. I katyushi on skis sounds like something they would try. After all, they were adept in fighting in the snow. It's cold in Russia. I will be following this one. Subscribed.
EdCraft
Joined: December 27, 2010
KitMaker: 187 posts
Armorama: 186 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 05:14 AM UTC
Yes, beginning from September 1941 there were some projects of the installation of 82-mm rocket launchers on "Aerosani". But these projects were cancelled because of:
1) The "Aerosani" were the seasonal transport, and they could not be used without snow or ice.
2) The "Aerosani" of existed types were low powerful and could to carry only little loads. Thus, only 4 rocket rails could to be mounted on each "Aerosani".
In December 1941 the projects were offered, in which the "Aerosani" were used as towing vehicles for sledges, on which the rocket rails were mounted. Several experimental sledges were built with rails for M-8 and М-13 rockets, but they were not adopted.
Once again the installations of rockets were remembered in September 1942 - but with not any success again.
Have You any images of these sledges or "Aerosani" ?
1) The "Aerosani" were the seasonal transport, and they could not be used without snow or ice.
2) The "Aerosani" of existed types were low powerful and could to carry only little loads. Thus, only 4 rocket rails could to be mounted on each "Aerosani".
In December 1941 the projects were offered, in which the "Aerosani" were used as towing vehicles for sledges, on which the rocket rails were mounted. Several experimental sledges were built with rails for M-8 and М-13 rockets, but they were not adopted.
Once again the installations of rockets were remembered in September 1942 - but with not any success again.
Have You any images of these sledges or "Aerosani" ?
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 08:09 AM UTC
Interesting subject, Look forward to following your work.
Naseby
Joined: October 15, 2010
KitMaker: 825 posts
Armorama: 246 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 09:33 AM UTC
Thanks for the interest, I hope You wont be dissapointed.
@ Eduard: Thank You for the info, unfortunately I dont have any pictures, so Im going to do a gues according to photos of other vehicles. Im still thinking about using the whole Katyusha construction from ICM or Zvezda Studebaker. As for the weight I dont think that would be a problem considering the Voroshilovets is far more powerfull than the Aerosan and could move even the heaviest rocket launcher with ease. Im more concerned about the technical aspect of towing a sledge or ski construction behind a heavy tracked vehicle which would produce some problem in deep snow. So far I completed the running wheels today and will continue tomorrow or on tuesday.
@ Eduard: Thank You for the info, unfortunately I dont have any pictures, so Im going to do a gues according to photos of other vehicles. Im still thinking about using the whole Katyusha construction from ICM or Zvezda Studebaker. As for the weight I dont think that would be a problem considering the Voroshilovets is far more powerfull than the Aerosan and could move even the heaviest rocket launcher with ease. Im more concerned about the technical aspect of towing a sledge or ski construction behind a heavy tracked vehicle which would produce some problem in deep snow. So far I completed the running wheels today and will continue tomorrow or on tuesday.
EdCraft
Joined: December 27, 2010
KitMaker: 187 posts
Armorama: 186 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 09:46 AM UTC
Well, see the images:
1) Most probably version of sledge:
2) Less probable version of sledge:
Although... Who knows their real appearance now ?
Maybe, both these sledges are the fiction...
Or, maybe, both sledges were real...
1) Most probably version of sledge:
2) Less probable version of sledge:
Although... Who knows their real appearance now ?
Maybe, both these sledges are the fiction...
Or, maybe, both sledges were real...
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 10:19 AM UTC
Could it be that the second, less probable photo was the prototype constructed by the soldiers in the field? And, the first picture the refined version? It seems logical to me, but I'm no expert and the Soviets were crafty. I feel a 4BO headache. 
Plasticbattle
#003
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
Armorama: 7,444 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 11:28 AM UTC
Hi Naseby. Very interesting subject .... not much of a fan of "what ifs", but occasionly they make me take notice, and this would be one of those times. Looking forward to more. 
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 12:47 PM UTC
Are the suspension arm assemblies one piece?
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 09:26 PM UTC
Great start so far Naseby, very clean and crisp
Although me too I'm not fond of "what if projects" I think is interesting reproducing a Katyusha on sledge
Only thing which in my humble opinion it would be quite unlikely is the use of such a heavy tractor to tow such a light rocket launcher
If Russians had made it, probably they would have towed most likely with horses Or maybe with light trucks. Or with....an Aerosan motorized sledge
Anyway here you are some drawings which I hope could help you
cheers
@ Eduard thanks a million for the first drawing
Although me too I'm not fond of "what if projects" I think is interesting reproducing a Katyusha on sledge
Only thing which in my humble opinion it would be quite unlikely is the use of such a heavy tractor to tow such a light rocket launcher
If Russians had made it, probably they would have towed most likely with horses Or maybe with light trucks. Or with....an Aerosan motorized sledge
Anyway here you are some drawings which I hope could help you
cheers
@ Eduard thanks a million for the first drawing
Naseby
Joined: October 15, 2010
KitMaker: 825 posts
Armorama: 246 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 10:19 PM UTC
@ Eduard and Mauro: Thank You for the pictures. I was thinking along a wooden construction but much heavier and more rafined than in the second picture. Since I dont have pictures of the real thing so Im probably going to make something that even the crew themselves could put together from wood. Say if the ZiS vehicle was disabled but the rocket launcher was still operational.
@ Matt: The whole suspension arm id in 4 pieces + 2 small wheels on the top.
Thanks for watching!
@ Matt: The whole suspension arm id in 4 pieces + 2 small wheels on the top.
Thanks for watching!
goldnova72
Joined: February 21, 2009
KitMaker: 627 posts
Armorama: 592 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 01:30 AM UTC
Your example # 2 ( with the truck ) looks a lot like a sled called a stone boat used by local farmers to move rocks off their fields . Can be pulled by horses or tractor , year round . Something similar should be found on most Russian farms as these sleds have been around since man built the pyrmids.
Found 3 pictures of sleds , 3 differnt styles . In Concord' Sov. Tanks in Combat ( 41 -45 ) pages 14 & 25 , this one looks like ex # 2 .
And in Tankograd # 2003 KV -1 , page 32
Found 3 pictures of sleds , 3 differnt styles . In Concord' Sov. Tanks in Combat ( 41 -45 ) pages 14 & 25 , this one looks like ex # 2 .
And in Tankograd # 2003 KV -1 , page 32
Buckeye198
Joined: May 02, 2010
KitMaker: 596 posts
Armorama: 265 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 06:16 PM UTC
Very cool subject! Can't wait to see how it plays out!
Naseby
Joined: October 15, 2010
KitMaker: 825 posts
Armorama: 246 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 08:09 AM UTC
I was working on the Voroshilovets a bit yesterday and today. What is interesting is the fact that there are a few spots which need to be blinded up othervise you can see into the empty interiour of the kit. Strangely I dont remember reading about this in any review.
Naseby
Joined: October 15, 2010
KitMaker: 825 posts
Armorama: 246 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 10:12 PM UTC
Ok, I cleared and assembled most track links yesterday and also started to work on the sled. The track links are hard to asseble since the fit isnt perfect and I also managed to stab myself into the left thumb, which didnt help at all 
For th sled I bought a piece of balsa from my LHS and started to cut of pieces and experiment. Its going to be a simple wooden sled with no special features. I still dont have the BM-13 so for now Im only going to asseble a universal design and add details only after I have the BM-13.
For th sled I bought a piece of balsa from my LHS and started to cut of pieces and experiment. Its going to be a simple wooden sled with no special features. I still dont have the BM-13 so for now Im only going to asseble a universal design and add details only after I have the BM-13.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 11:48 PM UTC
A blood sacrifice to our pagan god of model building is a good thing. You can always take out your pain on those figures you've been meaning to convert. 
Naseby
Joined: October 15, 2010
KitMaker: 825 posts
Armorama: 246 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 04:38 AM UTC
@ Matt: Well I hope that this was the last accident, dont want to end like Emre over on Aeroscale who had to sacrifice a P-47 to the Gods few days ago. I managed to acomplish the cabin today and also assemlbed the basic sled. But ims tarting to think that maybe a simpler flatbed sled for suply would be a better idea than a katyusha.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 08:54 AM UTC
Flatbed for supplies would be interesting, but IMHO I think the katyusha would be awesome. You just don't come across things like that. Or, build a second sled to carry supplies for the mlrs. But, this is your baby. Whatever you do, I'm sure it will turn out nicely.
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 09:40 AM UTC
I have a doubt about Katiusha brought by a sledge...
How did Russian managed the rocket launcher push?
Most likely a rocket shot could make move the sledge on ice like a "jet sledge"...it would had been very hard to control it
How did Russian managed the rocket launcher push?
Most likely a rocket shot could make move the sledge on ice like a "jet sledge"...it would had been very hard to control it
EdCraft
Joined: December 27, 2010
KitMaker: 187 posts
Armorama: 186 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 04:34 AM UTC
Maybe, they could to fix the sledges by ropes ?
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 04:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Maybe, they could to fix the sledges by ropes ?
Probably yes, but in that case where did they fixed the sledge ?...If there were trees they maybe could...but how did they manage when there weren't trees near them? Did they fix the sledge to the ground with ropes ans wood stakes? Or did they load the sledge with heavy sacks full of sand?
I know, maybe is a silly question, but anyway, I really wonder how they could manage that sort of weapon...
Naseby
Joined: October 15, 2010
KitMaker: 825 posts
Armorama: 246 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 07:36 AM UTC
I think the normal way to fix a artilery piece would be to put spikes into the ground around the carriage, maybe a simple spike could be enought since the normal Katyusha used only a simple car hand brake.
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 08:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I think the normal way to fix a artilery piece would be to put spikes into the ground around the carriage, maybe a simple spike could be enought since the normal Katyusha used only a simple car hand brake.
A "simple" car hand brake of a vehicle which had several tons of weight and which was laid on the solid ground...it was quite different from a sledge laid on ice
Anyway, as I told before, that's just a silly question
Congrats for your build, it looks very good so far
cheers
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Monday, December 19, 2011 - 01:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have a doubt about Katiusha brought by a sledge...
How did Russian managed the rocket launcher push?
Most likely a rocket shot could make move the sledge on ice like a "jet sledge"...it would had been very hard to control it
It is just as likely that they put metal spikes in the ground, aft of the direction to be fired. Why waste rope?
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Monday, December 19, 2011 - 04:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI have a doubt about Katiusha brought by a sledge...
How did Russian managed the rocket launcher push?
Most likely a rocket shot could make move the sledge on ice like a "jet sledge"...it would had been very hard to control it
It is just as likely that they put metal spikes in the ground, aft of the direction to be fired. Why waste rope?
because putting a spike on the hard ice could be very difficult. Furthermore spikes have to go quite deep to obtain a good anchorage
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