Яusso-Soviэt Forum
Russian or Soviet vehicles/armor modeling forum.
Russian or Soviet vehicles/armor modeling forum.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Jacques Duquette
Trumpeter's BMP-2
Nate_W
Joined: April 13, 2012
KitMaker: 395 posts
Armorama: 391 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 04:02 PM UTC
Thanks a lot Mike, I really appreciate the info. This figures.. 8 years I've been building nothing but WW2 german and a few allied AFVs. The month I finally decide to try something new and choose what appeals to me (1980s-present day BMP-2) and purchase a shorty DML kit and SP models hull and turret (albeit missing many pieces via ebay), Trumpeter announces this. So, I suppose I should just shelf the abomination that's currently %60 done on my workbench lol since even with some scratch building and AM parts, it will never look as good as Trumps OOB. Oh well Cheers!.
grunt136mike
Joined: November 24, 2012
KitMaker: 1,896 posts
Armorama: 1,858 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 05:21 PM UTC
Hi Nathan;
You are Very Welcome My Friend, but don't give up on that oldie. Its A Good way too try your hand at extra Detailing, use it too Practice on. You have too consider how old the kit really is, 1980s vintage. Back then DML was the only kit maker too dwell into modern Soviet Armor, they made A hole range of different subjects. There Quality was not that great and there Details were Poor and over simplified, the Trumpeter kits have made a 180 deg; turn in there quality in the last ten years. IMHO there quality in there products has pushed them into the Lead, and the way they turn out new Items is Scary.
CHEERS; MIKE.
You are Very Welcome My Friend, but don't give up on that oldie. Its A Good way too try your hand at extra Detailing, use it too Practice on. You have too consider how old the kit really is, 1980s vintage. Back then DML was the only kit maker too dwell into modern Soviet Armor, they made A hole range of different subjects. There Quality was not that great and there Details were Poor and over simplified, the Trumpeter kits have made a 180 deg; turn in there quality in the last ten years. IMHO there quality in there products has pushed them into the Lead, and the way they turn out new Items is Scary.
CHEERS; MIKE.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 03:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I Hear What Your Saying, now I Don't know how long either of you have been Modeling.
Since 1968, but who's counting?
Quoted Text
. . . lets NOT Talk about the Economics Side of trying too Scale it.. . .
Whether we talk about it or not, that's really the whole point. I don't think there is a market to sell those resin monstrosities in any sizable quantity, and that means there's less incentive to put the effort into scratch-building the masters. If there was, you'd have a lot more interiors for those kits on my previous list by now.
Feel free to keep hopin' though!
KL
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 04:15 AM UTC
1. Kurt is correct, there is not much of a market for interior details of tanks. I can hazard a slightly informed guess (HA!) that for every one of you that wants a interior, there is 1000 builders who do not care. Or, to put it in better context, to make the masters for a interior would cost ~ $1000. Then you factor in rubber, resin, and labor for the parts, and we would have to sell 100 sets at $50/each to break even, considering labor costs. SP Designs best selling kits over $50, the T-80U in several variants, are only close to that and have been spread over 8 years of sales and 4 major variants. There is not nearly that much flexibility in a BMP-1 interior. The numbers just do not add up to the popularity.
2. Also, Trumpeter's Tsunami of new kits has left so much uncertainty in the after market community that little is being explored right now and most of the Russian/Soviet model money is going into plastic kits, not aftermarket. As a example, who here wants to drop $350 on a Panzershop 2S7 or wait to buy Trumpeter's kit later this year for ~ $100? And the plastic kit will far exceed the resin one. Exactly.
3. The future? Well, maybe. Meng did the Bradley, Hobby Boos did the AAVP7 series...who knows...
2. Also, Trumpeter's Tsunami of new kits has left so much uncertainty in the after market community that little is being explored right now and most of the Russian/Soviet model money is going into plastic kits, not aftermarket. As a example, who here wants to drop $350 on a Panzershop 2S7 or wait to buy Trumpeter's kit later this year for ~ $100? And the plastic kit will far exceed the resin one. Exactly.
3. The future? Well, maybe. Meng did the Bradley, Hobby Boos did the AAVP7 series...who knows...
grunt136mike
Joined: November 24, 2012
KitMaker: 1,896 posts
Armorama: 1,858 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 09:00 AM UTC
Hi Everybody;
Sorry; But I have Too Disagree !! If the Market was not there then we would Not be seeing the Efforts of some of the Makers are attempting too release, when talking about AM companies that make resin conversions if there was not a Market for it then why is there So Many Manufactures.
JDs SP Design, and Mini-Arm they even give you some Extra details for there Excellent Turrets on the inside,
yea it was just the Sites but its A Start. O.K. Kurt gave us A List of kits, that's fine and good But in that List How Many of them are Vintage when the Ability was not there in the First Place. Take A Look at some of the APCs that have been Marketed in the past, ie; the Korean IFV that had a Complete Interior. Tamiya gave us the Bradley and I Hear the New Meng Bradley is Awsome, now you want too talk about the economics side of the Argument in respect too the AM side. IMHO the AM People are in the out-side of our Hobby, Meaning they are finding it very Hard too Compete with New Technology that the Big Boys are able too bring too the table or be Eaten by the Monster. ( Bought Out ) Like Ever one Else, they will have too Expand and Adapt or Go Under ! Now Photo Etch,--That's Another Argument ! SORRY For The OT and Rant but I Could Not Help Myself !!!!!
CHEERS & HAPPY MODELING; MIKE.
Sorry; But I have Too Disagree !! If the Market was not there then we would Not be seeing the Efforts of some of the Makers are attempting too release, when talking about AM companies that make resin conversions if there was not a Market for it then why is there So Many Manufactures.
JDs SP Design, and Mini-Arm they even give you some Extra details for there Excellent Turrets on the inside,
yea it was just the Sites but its A Start. O.K. Kurt gave us A List of kits, that's fine and good But in that List How Many of them are Vintage when the Ability was not there in the First Place. Take A Look at some of the APCs that have been Marketed in the past, ie; the Korean IFV that had a Complete Interior. Tamiya gave us the Bradley and I Hear the New Meng Bradley is Awsome, now you want too talk about the economics side of the Argument in respect too the AM side. IMHO the AM People are in the out-side of our Hobby, Meaning they are finding it very Hard too Compete with New Technology that the Big Boys are able too bring too the table or be Eaten by the Monster. ( Bought Out ) Like Ever one Else, they will have too Expand and Adapt or Go Under ! Now Photo Etch,--That's Another Argument ! SORRY For The OT and Rant but I Could Not Help Myself !!!!!CHEERS & HAPPY MODELING; MIKE.
ijozic
Joined: May 23, 2007
KitMaker: 109 posts
Armorama: 109 posts
KitMaker: 109 posts
Armorama: 109 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 10:14 PM UTC
Quoted Text
2. Also, Trumpeter's Tsunami of new kits has left so much uncertainty in the after market community that little is being explored right now and most of the Russian/Soviet model money is going into plastic kits, not aftermarket. As a example, who here wants to drop $350 on a Panzershop 2S7 or wait to buy Trumpeter's kit later this year for ~ $100? And the plastic kit will far exceed the resin one. Exactly.
I don't really get this argument - what does a super-expensive resin kit have to do with aftermarket interior sets? It's not like Trumpeter offers any add-on detail sets for their vehicles so they have to fear that the Trumpeter beats them to it.
And although Trumpeter did release a plethora of kits lately, some of them have interiors (e.g. BTR and BRDM series, BMP-3 somewhat, IIRC), for some of them the interior is not a must (e.g. for tanks and maybe artillery vehicles although I'd personally buy them), but for some it's almost a necessity - e.g. for APCs or IFVs like their BMP-1/P. And they don't have to always be COMPLETE interior sets, for tanks/artillery vehicles some sort of visible details under the hatches would be sufficient (e.g. there were also partial turret detail sets for e.g. Tiger tanks) which would thus also be cheaper.
Furthermore, if the risk factor is putting the AM companies off, they can use crowdfunding campaigns for that. E.g. if they need to sell a certain number of sets to make it worthwhile the investment, they can do some research, do a rough representation of what new detail parts would be offered (and use their current sets as a showcase of level of detail and quality of their products) and then set a minimum number of sets to be ordered for them to make it worthwhile. If a sufficient number of people preorder them (e.g. they get the funds immediately on Kickstarter or IndieGoGo), they would produce them, otherwise they can try something else.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2014 - 01:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I don't really get this argument - what does a super-expensive resin kit have to do with aftermarket interior sets? It's not like Trumpeter offers any add-on detail sets for their vehicles so they have to fear that the Trumpeter beats them to it.
I would hazard a guess that Jacques means that all the new plastic is absorbing all the loose hobby money leaving little for resin aftermarket, and that the resin guys (not really companies) are also wary of new kit or variant development because there could be a plastic version announced next week.
Quoted Text
Furthermore, if the risk factor is putting the AM companies off, they can use crowdfunding campaigns for that. E.g. if they need to sell a certain number of sets to make it worthwhile the investment, they can do some research, do a rough representation of what new detail parts would be offered (and use their current sets as a showcase of level of detail and quality of their products) and then set a minimum number of sets to be ordered for them to make it worthwhile. If a sufficient number of people preorder them (e.g. they get the funds immediately on Kickstarter or IndieGoGo), they would produce them, otherwise they can try something else.
So . . . Through these sites I can give a company money to produce something, but if the company decides that not enough people want it, they keep my money and I get nothing? Sign me up!
These crowdsourcing adventures appeal to people who think the are helping some greater good and are content to consider their "payment" as a charitable donation. Armor modelers, on the other hand, want a specific product delivered to them for their money - or else.
KL
stephane
Joined: October 10, 2005
KitMaker: 432 posts
Armorama: 429 posts
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2014 - 03:16 AM UTC
An interresting AM stuff could be a T72A interrior since there're tons of photos of destroyed T72A or M84 without the turret.
ijozic
Joined: May 23, 2007
KitMaker: 109 posts
Armorama: 109 posts
KitMaker: 109 posts
Armorama: 109 posts
Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 08:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So . . . Through these sites I can give a company money to produce something, but if the company decides that not enough people want it, they keep my money and I get nothing? Sign me up!
Not quite - the money is only charged if the project is successful; i.e. the target set by the aftermarket company has been reached. Now, true, after that they can keep the money, but we're talking about reputable aftermarket companies here..
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 06:10 PM UTC
I would hazard a guess that Jacques means that all the new plastic is absorbing all the loose hobby money leaving little for resin aftermarket, and that the resin guys (not really companies) are also wary of new kit or variant development because there could be a plastic version announced next week.
Kurt was correct in my thoughts. There is only so much money people spend on the hobby. More of it is going to kits and less is going to resin. This makes producers more skittish. AND who wants to invest time/money into any portion of kit development if it will become plastic soon after. I have seen support wilt for a conversion or detail set, let alone a full resin kit, within hours of hearing of a far-off future plastic release. Not that I blame them. Once the dust settles, the aftermarket will respond. Some people believe that Trumpeter will eventually come out with a BMP-1 with interior. I am not holding my breath, but the rumors exist and it effects development of kits. Sergej (SP Designs owner/operator) never made a T-84 kit because SKIF had apparently tooled a kit up but did not release it. he felt he would not recover his investment if he ever did it.
Now, crowdsourcing IS a interesting and new development, but Eastern European economies, banks, and politics have to settle a bit before it becomes a reality there...and they have the biggest interest in seeing ANYTHING done for Red Armor.
Kurt was correct in my thoughts. There is only so much money people spend on the hobby. More of it is going to kits and less is going to resin. This makes producers more skittish. AND who wants to invest time/money into any portion of kit development if it will become plastic soon after. I have seen support wilt for a conversion or detail set, let alone a full resin kit, within hours of hearing of a far-off future plastic release. Not that I blame them. Once the dust settles, the aftermarket will respond. Some people believe that Trumpeter will eventually come out with a BMP-1 with interior. I am not holding my breath, but the rumors exist and it effects development of kits. Sergej (SP Designs owner/operator) never made a T-84 kit because SKIF had apparently tooled a kit up but did not release it. he felt he would not recover his investment if he ever did it.
Now, crowdsourcing IS a interesting and new development, but Eastern European economies, banks, and politics have to settle a bit before it becomes a reality there...and they have the biggest interest in seeing ANYTHING done for Red Armor.
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