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Luchs/puma help

M4A1Sherman

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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 01:49 PM UTC

[quote]

Quoted Text

Yes not really waiting just looking for info/answers
Thanks for the Hobby Boss info.

It's close but not the puma turret below.........go to bottom of page

http://seryj221221.livejournal.com/218197.html

I haven't come across a kit of that, but here's a conversion posted on the net:

http://intscalemodeller.com/viewtopic.php?t=9951

OK- So this is the 1/72 model of the Leopard, i.e, the VK.1602 (D), which was based on the VK.1301 and the VK.1601, if I am reading the above sources properly. This is the model of the ACTUAL "Leopard" that was built and tested in 1941 by the German Army (Heer), and cancelled in 1942, IN LIEU of the "Panzerspaehwagen Puma" (Sd.Kfz.234/2 8-Rad), which was still in it's final developmental stages at the time...

Eventually, the Pz.kpfw.II Ausf.L (Sd.Kfz.123) "Panzerspaehwagen Luchs" mit 2.cm KwK. was developed, and IT actually saw action, as opposed to the VK.1602 (D), which obviously, never did...

I feel like I'm flogging a DEAD HORSE-

If there is no such thing as a dedicated 1/35 plastic kit (NOT a kit-bash), of a Pz.Kpfw.II Ausf.L Luchs, WITH a Puma/"Paper-Panzer" Leopard Turret in existence, WHY would VOYAGER choose to release their PE35378 Luchs PE set, which I'm assuming would include the proper PE for the original Luchs Turret, with what is obviously a KIT-BASH of the Luchs w/Puma Turret??? This is what VOYAGER is actually showing in their advertisements, and on the PE35378 PE kits' box photo-illustrations...

Wouldn't it stand to reason that in order for a modeller to outfit his/her kit-bash of a Luchs w/Puma Turret with added VOYAGER PE details, then he/she would need to buy BOTH the PE35378 Luchs set, AND the PE35406 "Leopard" set?

Both AMUSING HOBBY and HOBBY BOSS are calling their "Leopard" kits, (sometimes called "Baby Panthers"), "VK.1602s", of which both kits seem to be NOTHING OF THE KIND- These vehicles are vastly different from the ACTUAL VK.1602 (D), as illustrated above. Yes, the two kits are "Paper-Panzers", so logically, wouldn't the Heer have assigned the "Baby Panther" a different VK. number, altogether..?

Bonaparte84

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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 02:14 PM UTC

[quote]

Quoted Text

Quoted Text

Yes not really waiting just looking for info/answers
Thanks for the Hobby Boss info.

It's close but not the puma turret below.........go to bottom of page

http://seryj221221.livejournal.com/218197.html

I haven't come across a kit of that, but here's a conversion posted on the net:

http://intscalemodeller.com/viewtopic.php?t=9951

IMHO the picture of the model above does not do justice to the prototpye with 50 mm gun referred to in the russian article w(with a reference pic). If Google Translate worked well (I believe it did), this was an open top, open rear fixed fighting compartment like the ones of Marders, Nashrons etc., hence no "turret" to begin with... Also, in the reference pic, these thingies on the turret look like typical straps for a tarp to cover the (open) roof.

I think everything has been said. There never was a design which would hae Puma turret placed on a Luchs chassis.

But it would have looked very cool!

RobinNilsson

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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 02:46 PM UTC

Ummm, I think we may have a case of confused names/designation here.
This is a Leopard, also known as VK 1602:

Image "borrowed" from Achtungpanzer and described here:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/vk1602-leopard-reconnaisance-tank.htm
The VK 1602 was based on the Luchs but significantly modified so it was not simply a Luchs with a new turret smacked on top

This is a Puma, also known as "Schwere Panzerspähwagen (5cm) Puma Sd.Kfz.234/2"

described with text and images here:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/schwere-panzerspahwagen-5cm-puma-sdkfz2342-8-rad.htm

This vehicle

is labeled by the model builder as "Panzer II G with 5 cm Pak 38"
http://intscalemodeller.com/viewtopic.php?t=9951
and in the Panzer-encyclopedia (see my previous post) it is called Pz Sfl 1c/5cm Pak 38 auf PzKpfw II (VK901) but nothing is said about turret or fixed superstructure. My guess would be a turret since the gun seems be fixed in the mantlet (moves up/down but not sideways) so the whole vehicle would need to turn when aiming (StuG's had guns that could be moved a few degrees sideways with larger adjustments being made with the whole vehicle)
The text at the bottom of this article:
http://seryj221221.livejournal.com/218197.html
says "superstructure" without using the word 'fixed' but it would be natural to assume that it was a fixed superstructure so maybe the mantlet could wiggle sideways a little to provide the fine aiming needed. If we want to use VK numbers the chassis was VK 901 or 903, probably 903 (see link above)

The open topped 8-rad reconnaisance vehicle "Schwere Panzerspähwagen (2cm) Sd.Kfz.234/1 (8-Rad) ", i.e this beast

has a completely different turret.
There was also 234/3 with a short barreled 7.5cm and the 234/4 with the 7.5cm Pak 40

The turret developed for the Leopard was used for the Puma.

Going back to the question in the original post the short answer would be: Yes.
Slightly longer answer: Yes, but you should probably fill the holes for the two hatches. It looks as if the turret would make the hatches useless ...

Parts or maybe all of the above information can be deduced from the other posts, only summarized here for clarity.

/ Robin

ryally

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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 03:13 PM UTC

Lol sorry guys

Now I have to ask another question about the below pic........is it a Puma or 8-rad bottom/hull or is it to hard to tell

http://www.warlordgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Sdkfz-234-wLuchsTerm.jpg

M4A1Sherman

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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 03:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ummm, I think we may have a case of confused names/designation here.
This is a Leopard, also known as VK 1602:

Image "borrowed" from Achtungpanzer and described here:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/vk1602-leopard-reconnaisance-tank.htm
The VK 1602 was based on the Luchs but significantly modified so it was not simply a Luchs with a new turret smacked on top

This is a Puma, also known as "Schwere Panzerspähwagen (5cm) Puma Sd.Kfz.234/2"

described with text and images here:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/schwere-panzerspahwagen-5cm-puma-sdkfz2342-8-rad.htm

This vehicle

is labeled by the model builder as "Panzer II G with 5 cm Pak 38"
http://intscalemodeller.com/viewtopic.php?t=9951
and in the Panzer-encyclopedia (see my previous post) it is called Pz Sfl 1c/5cm Pak 38 auf PzKpfw II (VK901) but nothing is said about turret or fixed superstructure. My guess would be a turret since the gun seems be fixed in the mantlet (moves up/down but not sideways) so the whole vehicle would need to turn when aiming (StuG's had guns that could be moved a few degrees sideways with larger adjustments being made with the whole vehicle)

The open topped 8-rad reconnaisance vehicle "Schwere Panzerspähwagen (2cm) Sd.Kfz.234/1 (8-Rad) ", i.e this beast

has a completely different turret.
There was also 234/3 with a short barreled 7.5cm and the 234/4 with the 7.5cm Pak 40

The turret developed for the Leopard was used for the Puma.

Going back to the question in the original post the short answer would be: Yes.
Slightly longer answer: Yes, but you should probably fill the holes for the two hatches. It looks as if the turret would make the hatches useless ...

Parts or maybe all of the above information can be deduced from the other posts, only summarized here for clarity.

/ Robin

Hi, Robin!

The photo of the 1/72nd scale model is the VK.1602 (D); the VK.901 was essentially a Pz.Kpfw.II Ausf.D, converted with an internal Torsion Bar Suspension that featured overlapping Road Wheels, similar to those seen on the VK.1602 (D), and a revolving Turret similar to the type that was used on the VK.1601 (D), whereas the VK.1602 Leopard featured an open-topped superstructure...

This info from: "Pictorial History of TANKS OF THE WORLD 1915-45", by Peter Chamberlain & Chris Ellis...

Bonaparte84

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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 03:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ummm, I think we may have a case of confused names/designation here.

If you are referring to me, I'm not confused at all. All I'm saying is that this model

is not a faithful representation of the reference pics shown in the according links. I believe it would have been a fixed installation:

1. IMO one of the reference pics shows an open rear fighting compartment:
http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/hansolo15/media/Panzer%20II%20G%20with%205cm%20Pak%2038/ScreenShot2014-12-02at123857_zpse82904ec.png.html

2. Otherwise it would have been the first German vehicle with open turret and 360° traverse with a gun larger than 20 mm, hence highly unusual for German designs. The fact that it was supposedly tested in combat in a Panzerjäger-unit speaks for the fact that it was suppoed to be a TD, hence German TD tradition would apply, which saw a lot of fixed fighting compartment designs like the whole Marder and Nashrn series, to nae just a few.

3. The russian article which seems well informed refers to a fixed fighting compartment.

4. Arguably the Luchs-chassis could not have dealt with the recoil of the 5cm gun at 90° traverse. The Luchs had half of the weight the Leopard would have had...

I know that nothing of this is "compelling evidence", but to me, an open turreted TD with 5cm gun on a Luchs cassis just doesn't fit into the scheme of things...

Cheers!

RobinNilsson

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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 04:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Lol sorry guys

Now I have to ask another question about the below pic........is it a Puma or 8-rad bottom/hull or is it to hard to tell

http://www.warlordgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Sdkfz-234-wLuchsTerm.jpg

Puma is a nickname for one of the various versions of the Sd Kfz 234, specifically the SdKfz 234/2.
Sd Kfz 234/1: Open topped turret with 2cm KwK 38 L/55 gun (similar to the 4-wheeled cars, Sd Kfz 222)
Sd Kfz 234/2 Puma with 5cm gun in enclosed turret.
Sd Kfz 234/3 open topped fixed superstructure with 7.5 cm short barreled KwK51 L/24 (similar gun also in early Pz IV's and Sd Kfz 251/9)
Sd Kfz 234/4 open topped superstructure with 7.5cm Pak 40 on a pedestal.

Your question: Puma or 8-rad. The chassis (bottom/hull) is an Sd Kfz 234 and since the /1 and /2 had the same chassis (but different turrets) I would say that it is either a 234/1 or 234/2. Get a 234/2 and use the turret for the Luchs chassis if you feel like stretching historical facts

There was a 1/35 kitbash for sale on ebay, named 'The Luma'

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/1-35-Built-Luma-Puma-with-Luchs-Turret-/321919315114 Dragon + Asuka/Tasca

The Sd Kfz 231, 232, 233 and 263 were also 8-wheeled but their fronts are more bulging with different angles of the plates. Compare the fronts of these two:
The 231:

The 234/1:

In the early years there were also 6-wheeled Sd Kfz 231, 232 and 263. These look like sports cars on steroids with a bad attitude.

/ Robin

RobinNilsson

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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 04:17 PM UTC

@ Nicolas Ruffier

1. No, I wasn't referring to you. We were typing our posts at the same time so I hadn't read your response when I posted.

2. I agree with your thoughts (except the weight argument, see below) about a fixed superstructure, I was partially misled by the model. The drawings in the russian site definitely looks like a fixed superstructure (no gap to allow rotation).

Vehicle weight and recoil:
Sd Kfz 234/2 with 5 cm gun in 360 degree turret: 11.74 tons
Sd Kfz 123 (Pz II ausf L, Luchs) with 2 cm gun: 13 tons
I assume that if a wheeled vehicle at less than 12 tons could handle the gun then a tracked chassis at 13 tons should also be able to manage it.
/ Robin

RobinNilsson

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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 04:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The photo of the 1/72nd scale model is the VK.1602 (D); the VK.901 was essentially a Pz.Kpfw.II Ausf.D, converted with an internal Torsion Bar Suspension that featured overlapping Road Wheels, similar to those seen on the VK.1602 (D), and a revolving Turret similar to the type that was used on the VK.1601 (D), whereas the VK.1602 Leopard featured an open-topped superstructure...

This info from: "Pictorial History of TANKS OF THE WORLD 1915-45", by Peter Chamberlain & Chris Ellis...

This 1/72 model:
http://olimodels.com/products/1-72-pzkpfw-ii-luchs-with-puma-turret-resin-kit-modell-trans-72398
shows something labeled as "Panzerwaffe '46" so I personally doubt that it ever had an official designation. The box also says Luchs with Puma turret.

Link to small pictures showing:
VK 1601 (also known as Pz Kpfw II Ausf J)
VK 901 (lighter version of the 1601, also known as Pz Kpfw II Ausf G, 12 completed vehicles)
and VK 1301 (or Pz Kpfw II neuer Art Ausf H und M, only 4 produced) VK 903 were the prototypes for VK 1301.
http://ww2photo.se/tanks/d/pz2/pro/proto.htm
All of them armed with 20 mm guns, at least not as big as 50 mm.
I still prefer to trust Chamberlain, Doyle & Jentz regarding the turret intended for VK 1602 and its subsequent use on the Puma.

VK 1602 prototype fitted with Pz II Ausf G turret: