Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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How important is under chassis detail to you?
Removed by original poster on 08/02/19 - 07:21:22 (GMT).
parrot
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 1,607 posts
Armorama: 1,581 posts
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2019 - 07:39 AM UTC
My kits are always used in dioramas and the less time spent on the underneath is what I prefer.
Tom
Tom
samkidd
Joined: January 06, 2006
KitMaker: 530 posts
Armorama: 450 posts
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2019 - 07:44 AM UTC
I saw the mention of the old automotive "total curbside kits" that were common back in the day and had to laugh. I remember those and all those diecast cars and trucks with simply a flat pan in place of any chassis detail. The cars and trucks were beautiful and amazingly detailed, but if you turned them over you likely saw a flat board with the company's name on it. It's amazing to see how far we've come since then.
All that got me thinking about an abandoned project that I had put into storage. It was originally going to be a kit of a really popular little vehicle but the design ended up having ZERO under chassis detail. In fact, it is like those "flat pan" diecast cars of years past. Tons of detail anywhere you could see from any angle including springs, axle, steerable wheels etc., but nothing on the bottom.
The amount of work to whip the underside into a reasonable looking chassis is what ended up regulating it to the "abandoned" shelf. After accessing how much work the chassis would add I simply wrote the little vehicle off as a "for Jim's use only" project to be completed later and moved on. This thread has got me thinking about taking a fresh look at that little guy. Maybe redoing the chassis to add some detail but not a complete reworking of the model.
Something for me to think about. Thanks to all who have given their opinions so far. This really does help.
Jim
LSA
All that got me thinking about an abandoned project that I had put into storage. It was originally going to be a kit of a really popular little vehicle but the design ended up having ZERO under chassis detail. In fact, it is like those "flat pan" diecast cars of years past. Tons of detail anywhere you could see from any angle including springs, axle, steerable wheels etc., but nothing on the bottom.
The amount of work to whip the underside into a reasonable looking chassis is what ended up regulating it to the "abandoned" shelf. After accessing how much work the chassis would add I simply wrote the little vehicle off as a "for Jim's use only" project to be completed later and moved on. This thread has got me thinking about taking a fresh look at that little guy. Maybe redoing the chassis to add some detail but not a complete reworking of the model.
Something for me to think about. Thanks to all who have given their opinions so far. This really does help.
Jim
LSA
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2019 - 07:53 AM UTC
On trucks,cars,halftracks and the like,definitely need that detail.Tanks although less detail should have the appropiate hatches,bolts and fittings.They shouldnt be like simplified toys.
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2019 - 12:43 PM UTC
Some of you might recall the exquisite detail Monogram provided on their 1/24th scale Beer Wagon or their Tarantula. 
I expect more to be honest. It would be nice to have all the parts under the vehicle that belong there. Detail such as break lines could be provided as a wire you bend and not plastic. It would also be helpful to have some photos of the real chassis. I would like to also know where the attachment points are for the exhaust, break, and fuel lines. A wiring diagram for the lights would be helpful.
I expect more to be honest. It would be nice to have all the parts under the vehicle that belong there. Detail such as break lines could be provided as a wire you bend and not plastic. It would also be helpful to have some photos of the real chassis. I would like to also know where the attachment points are for the exhaust, break, and fuel lines. A wiring diagram for the lights would be helpful. 
mogdude
Joined: June 18, 2012
KitMaker: 459 posts
Armorama: 195 posts
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2019 - 10:56 PM UTC
Not very for me If ya cant see why bother just makes it take longer to build my .02$ worth
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2019 - 11:38 PM UTC
In the interest of brevity, and giving a Cliffs Notes version: As an ex-regional AMPS judge, and current IPMS National judge, there are basics we need to deal with concerning detailing the underside of vehicles. While judging as an AMPS judge, we only view the vehicle with the effort of not touching it. If the vehicle is without a base to turn, then yes, we (I) make that decision to physically turn the vehicle to view, but never 'lifting' from the table to view the undercarriage. As a IPMS judge, the whole vehicle is subject to viewing, at all angles. If the vehicle is fixed to a base, then the undercarriage is not judged by touching to lift, but the parts/paint/camo/detailing, that can be seen, should transition up along the side and top of the vehicle. Either judging procedure does not preclude the judging without the use of a mirror however (and/or the use of a small pen light). Be aware of that as well...if you plan to enter your model in a contest, we know how to view an undercarriage without touching the model in either contest venue. The undercarriage sometimes becomes the tie-breaker in a contest and could be the difference in how the vehicle is placed or awarded. Add to all this if you're concerned about judges handing your model: I wear clean, non static, white cotton gloves, when I judge. You should have no fear of how your vehicle is handled at a contest, if at all. Just my 2 cents worth. 
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
Armorama: 8,695 posts
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2019 - 11:57 PM UTC
In keeping with my above stated fanaticism; I used to add bolted engine access plates and an escape hatch to the undersides of the tank models in my early days. Then of course I would also have to close up all those battery drive openings in the bottoms of my early Tamiya tanks knowing full well no one but myself would probably ever notice.
southpier
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 12:29 AM UTC
on occasion, I will remove ejector pin marks from inside of sealed assemblies, so must abstain from addressing the OP's question . . .
DarthLetcherous
Joined: June 09, 2013
KitMaker: 22 posts
Armorama: 20 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 03:33 AM UTC
I am on the fence. Are the wheels positionable? Are the sponsons filled (still have open sponson DML kits)? For me, detail within reason is key.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
Armorama: 8,695 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 03:42 AM UTC
Like you, I always position front wheels at an angle (or all wheels if 4-wheel steer) and I close up sponsons WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
Also if turret hatch is to be open with figure added I will build a firewall inside to eliminate any possible chance of seeing into the vacant rear of the tank interior. Also I will add some slight detail to the interior near the hatch - seat, canteen, wiring, binocular stowage, como boxes.
Also if turret hatch is to be open with figure added I will build a firewall inside to eliminate any possible chance of seeing into the vacant rear of the tank interior. Also I will add some slight detail to the interior near the hatch - seat, canteen, wiring, binocular stowage, como boxes.
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 04:38 AM UTC
While the underside of a kit isn't terribly important to me, per se, I still want the whole kit to be accurate, and that includes filled sponsons, and accurate access plates and drain holes, etc. On the older Tamiya kits I not only fill the sponsons and motorisation holes, but add drains & access covers as needed. I count rivets. I want accuracy.
Paul
Paul
Vicious
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 11:19 AM UTC
Personally I am always happy to find even hidden details, a little because it gives you more choice, you can put the vehicle upside down or in other positions without having to worry about having to hide or scratch-build something, but even if you don't see it I know it's there ', and since I usually build my models for the delight of "me, my self and I" knowing that it is there makes me happier !! ...
DarthLetcherous
Joined: June 09, 2013
KitMaker: 22 posts
Armorama: 20 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 12:14 PM UTC
When it comes to brass tacks, the more detailed, the less I have to imagineer the things I had to develope before. Upside down vehicles, destroyed, or damaged vehicles are easier to show in a diorama with that detail, so said. Actually, why complain? We get an amazing amount of detail! Go back 20 years. We had to delve deeply, with extra resin ,add on, plus hours of scouring obscure details, and (to my memory) many a broken wallet. We strived to achieve the level of detail we get out OTB with current manufacturers . Sorry if this is inflammatory, but........ almost weekly, we get new releases with detail that was unimaginable 15 years ago. Let me say I t again . Why complain?
Also, sorry again. Seems harsh:
Also, sorry again. Seems harsh:
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 12:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Actually, why complain? . . . Let me say I t again . Why complain?
It's not a complaint (and I don't think anyone is "complaining") but there is a downside to having kits bursting with detail. It is not an inevitable, strictly increasing benefit. More Detail almost always means More Parts, and very few companies are able to pull off engineering these kits to a painless level. Mega-detail and especially mega-parts often lead to a significant increase in clean-up and fitting during construction. I have passed on some of the recent large kits even at fire sale prices because I looked through the instructions and the sprues and realized I'm just not interested in spending all the time that will be needed to build the kit to the level that I consider acceptable.
That's not a complaint, but it explains why I (and apparently others) don't consider More Detail to automatically lead to More Enjoyable Modeling or Better Modeling, especially when that detail is in areas we didn't intend to display and didn't want to work on.
KL
highpoint
Joined: October 14, 2011
KitMaker: 55 posts
Armorama: 41 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 08:07 PM UTC
Kurt,
I like your explanation on the contests. I've judged AM
PS and IPMS up to Nats level. IPMS is more construction oriented where if a road wheel or tire is tweeked the kit falls out to a better built but less complex and/or accurate build that might no "look" as good. The only way the underside would be judged is if the builder placed it on a mirror. There have been times when I needed a Sherman lower hull for something I grab grab what I have lying around and don't worry about the underside.
Jeff
I like your explanation on the contests. I've judged AM
PS and IPMS up to Nats level. IPMS is more construction oriented where if a road wheel or tire is tweeked the kit falls out to a better built but less complex and/or accurate build that might no "look" as good. The only way the underside would be judged is if the builder placed it on a mirror. There have been times when I needed a Sherman lower hull for something I grab grab what I have lying around and don't worry about the underside.
Jeff
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
Armorama: 8,695 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 08:37 PM UTC
Gentlemen what is you experience in a judging/contest environment regarding a model containing an above average level of detail? If the contestant chooses to go all out by detailing the underside and sitting the model on a mirror, providing photos, reference material, etc.? What is the judge's response/attitude towards this?
I realize at the outset doing this has both risks and rewards. It draws more attention and perhaps more interest. Maybe it impresses more but the construction and execution still have to be be done to the same level of quality and perfection as the rest of the model. Also this extra detailing must meet the required contest level of construction.
In doing all this one just as easily might run a higher risk of disqualifying themselves over some construction flaw or detailing mistake.
__________________________
Personally when I go to this higher level of detailing it is not to say that I build all my models this way, because I do not. It is usually motivated by a love or interest in a particular prototype. Some special aspect that causes me to shift into what I call "Maximum Effort" mode.
I realize at the outset doing this has both risks and rewards. It draws more attention and perhaps more interest. Maybe it impresses more but the construction and execution still have to be be done to the same level of quality and perfection as the rest of the model. Also this extra detailing must meet the required contest level of construction.
In doing all this one just as easily might run a higher risk of disqualifying themselves over some construction flaw or detailing mistake.
__________________________
Personally when I go to this higher level of detailing it is not to say that I build all my models this way, because I do not. It is usually motivated by a love or interest in a particular prototype. Some special aspect that causes me to shift into what I call "Maximum Effort" mode.
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 09:34 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text.Also you have to take into account the Builder who makes his subject to inter A Contest or Show; ie;) The NATS or AMPS !! Then your talking about A Hole New Ball Game !!
That's not the case at AMPS. We don't pick up, let alone turn over, the models in the contest. The only judging of the underside involves the basic alignment of tracks, wheels, and suspensions. No one is even looking to see if the floor pan is painted between the frame rails. We judge the models on what you can see in the orientation and context that is presented.
People have this mistaken impression that AMPS judging demands hyper-detailing and accuracy because the judges (who are just regular AMPS members) are hardcore tank builders. That's just not true. The thing that judges focus on are the basics: open seams, flash, glue smears, paint runs, hair embedded in the finish, suspensions out of line, and separated track links. A stock Tamiya kit done well can easily score higher than some 1000-part, metal track, three PE set, magnum opus if the builder doesn't take the time to clean up his seams and line up his wheels.
KL
Amen!
Done some judging at IPMS contests in Stockholm.
Fingerprints in the paint is another item on the checklist ...
/ Robin
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 09:36 PM UTC
I just don't bother with details which will never be seen by any human eye. If the vehicle in question is affixed to a dio base, I will only concern myself with details that can be seen, readily. For example, some US WWII-vintage CCKW-series "Jimmies" had Retaining-springs which were attached to the front Brake Lines, in order to keep them from flopping-around loosely. These Retaining-springs can be readily seen from the frontal aspect of the vehicle, especially if the front Wheels are casually posed as turning to the right or the left. That's why I'll include them in my detailing. (I make these Springs out of very fine wire, wound around a very small drill bit) Many times, during the course of the "Jimmy's" lifetime, these Retaining-springs will have disappeared. That is also why I will NOT always include them on every single CCKW-type that I build...
On the other hand, there is NO POINT in fully detailing the top half of the Engine of said "Jimmy", if the Hood (Bonnet) and the side panels of the Hood are cemented closed.
Am I making myself clear enough..?
In my opinion, if one chooses to go to the ultimate lengths in detailing the underside of a vehicle that deserves such detailing, well and good. If the modeler chooses to dispense with the extra detailing, that's OK, too. Nothing lost, nothing gained...
On the other hand, there is NO POINT in fully detailing the top half of the Engine of said "Jimmy", if the Hood (Bonnet) and the side panels of the Hood are cemented closed.
Am I making myself clear enough..?
In my opinion, if one chooses to go to the ultimate lengths in detailing the underside of a vehicle that deserves such detailing, well and good. If the modeler chooses to dispense with the extra detailing, that's OK, too. Nothing lost, nothing gained...
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 09:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
This is interesting. Nearly all of my kits have a high degree of detail everywhere including the bottom which comes at the price of having quite a number of pieces that are difficult to cast. These pieces are often found on the chassis and have areas of deep undercuts (like C channels) or are just plain thin by nature.
Pieces like that add a lot of difficulty during the molding and casting process. The number of "unsuccessful" molds made and/or high numbers of reject castings can be frustrating and expensive. While that is the nature of the business it's interesting to see that on SOME models we make in the future it might not be completely necessary.
That's why I was asking really. As a one man operation that pays for every gallon of silicone and every 3D print out of his paychecks, I have to keep things in perspective. If folks like high detail everywhere including the chassis I'm covered. If, however, it'll mostly be a waste of time for most modelers then I need to know as that as well. Any time and money saved on the unnecessary can go towards other projects!
While I'm not going to revise or simplify any kits that are currently underway (94!), it's something to think about for the occasional piece in the future. After we get LSA rolling it might be fun to look at some of the "shelf Queens" with an eye towards simplification but no time soon.
Jim
LSA
Maybe there could be a middle way?
Provide the basics correctly, such as proper C-channels for the frame, and include information about the rest.
Casting brake lines and other thin/long parts could be difficult/expensive but a few sheets of instructions providing diagrams for how to bend rod/wire could be enough to allow the detail enthusiasts to do the rest.
One of the major obstacles when super detailing is to find the information so IF that could be provided it would be a big bonus added at little cost.
A motivated model builder can scratch build the missing details if drawings are provided.
/ Robin
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
Armorama: 8,695 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 11:27 PM UTC
Dennis my only addition to your comment above is that it would be nice if the model manufactures would stop placing obstacles in the modelers way such as flat belly pans in the undercarriage where actual detail should be or flat engine bottom plates with only a poorly detailed oil pan instead of giving us something there with greater detail and deeper relief.
(I can't count how many of these engine plates with oil pan I have cut out in my life in order to then rebuild some of the lower portion of the engine with deeper relief detail now open (as it should be) up thru the engine compartment.)
__________________
IMHO I would rate:
#1. Open sponsons.
#2. Solid lower engine pans (in wheeled vehicles.)
#3. No firewall and gun breech (in tracked closed top vehicles.)
. . . . . as the greatest obstacles to proper model armor construction foisted upon us by the hobby industry.
(p.s. Also add to that - #4. Poorly cast radial engine fronts in the model aircraft segment of the hobby.)
(I can't count how many of these engine plates with oil pan I have cut out in my life in order to then rebuild some of the lower portion of the engine with deeper relief detail now open (as it should be) up thru the engine compartment.)
__________________
IMHO I would rate:
#1. Open sponsons.
#2. Solid lower engine pans (in wheeled vehicles.)
#3. No firewall and gun breech (in tracked closed top vehicles.)
. . . . . as the greatest obstacles to proper model armor construction foisted upon us by the hobby industry.
(p.s. Also add to that - #4. Poorly cast radial engine fronts in the model aircraft segment of the hobby.)
southpier
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 12:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Maybe there could be a middle way?
Provide the basics correctly, such as proper C-channels for the frame, and include information about the rest.
Casting brake lines and other thin/long parts could be difficult/expensive but a few sheets of instructions providing diagrams for how to bend rod/wire could be enough to allow the detail enthusiasts to do the rest.
One of the major obstacles when super detailing is to find the information so IF that could be provided it would be a big bonus added at little cost.
A motivated model builder can scratch build the missing details if drawings are provided.
/ Robin
oh boy! there's a reason middle ground is called No Man's Land!
but if a manufacturer kept the cost of a model the same, deleted details but added raw materials & information I think there would be wide appeal to both neophyte & experienced modelers. no one would feel overwhelmed at the sprues count, and everyone would build to their experience level and have something to show for their efforts.
I actually remember when kits numbered AND named the part so the builder could learn as he assembled.
we might be on to something here!
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 02:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Casting brake lines and other thin/long parts could be difficult/expensive but a few sheets of instructions providing diagrams for how to bend rod/wire could be enough to allow the detail enthusiasts to do the rest.
/ Robin
That is exactly why certain walk arounds, with fanatical attention to the undersides, are popular. And always will be.
amoz02t
#192
Joined: November 25, 2009
KitMaker: 1,383 posts
Armorama: 1,281 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 03:02 AM UTC
Yes. For me, any kit is a learning opportunity and a 3 dimensional map. The more detail you can add, the more you understand about how the vehicle was built and how the thing worked. I don't really need to know how to buck rivets in order to understand airplane war stories told by a veteran, but it helps. Likewise with undersides and interiors on a model kit. All models are wrong, but some are useful to help our understanding. Useful even if the model sits incomplete on a dusty shelf in the stash closet!! Please tell the wife LOL 
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 03:54 AM UTC
It's sometimes important to me, because I'm the one who knows it's there, and my favorite part of the hobby is building and adding detail. I've found it may not be as important to others. I think it's really about what you expect from your model building-- you can have a very nice display model, without a lot of underside detail, or you can have a miniature work of art with all the bells and whistles. Having said that, I've built my share of "curbside" models that look very nice on the shelf, or in diorama settings where the underside isn't readily visible. Then there are the "superdetail" projects that I've done for my own pleasure, "because that's what the original looked like". It just depends on what I intend to do with the model and my interest level.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
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