https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GsSePGRwcM
Somebody said on this forum that Dragon's Black Label kits are terrible and here is an example of video proof.
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No Lie About The Black Label Kits
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 02:07 PM UTC
Kenaicop
#384
Joined: August 23, 2005
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Posted: Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 04:15 PM UTC
We wouldn’t lie to ya 
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 08:10 AM UTC
Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is NOT news...
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 10:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is NOT news...
To some people it might be.
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 10:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextPlease don't take this the wrong way, but this is NOT news...
To some people it might be.
The Black Label / Black Plague / Black Death has been discussed a lot here
BUT
it might be news to those who wasn't on the Forums back then.
People may need reminding ...
/ Robin
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 12:57 PM UTC
In a few days this will drop off the bottom of the screen and people will have to search for it. That search will probably find all those other BL posts as well, so a single line reference to a three-year-old YouTube video is not doing all that much in the scheme of things.
And perhaps more to the point, the video just talks about ONE kit (and he doesn't even build anything) and only talks about simplifications (*) and minor and admittedly correctable issues with the moldings. This video is proof of nothing about the BL line and barely proof of anything really terrible with this kit. It is convincing evidence that it should be a crime to put a documentary on YouTube without basic editing.
KL
(*) I'm sorry, I could only zip through it. A "/review" that spends almost 18 minutes without building anything is unwatchable. A review that spends a full 20% of its length looking at the [auto-censored]ing box is unwatchable. A review that spends another 15% of it's length talking about references that are unusable or unavailable is unwatchable. A video where the [auto-censored]ing guy sneezes and doesn't edit it out is un-[auto-censored]ing-believable.
And perhaps more to the point, the video just talks about ONE kit (and he doesn't even build anything) and only talks about simplifications (*) and minor and admittedly correctable issues with the moldings. This video is proof of nothing about the BL line and barely proof of anything really terrible with this kit. It is convincing evidence that it should be a crime to put a documentary on YouTube without basic editing.
KL
(*) I'm sorry, I could only zip through it. A "/review" that spends almost 18 minutes without building anything is unwatchable. A review that spends a full 20% of its length looking at the [auto-censored]ing box is unwatchable. A review that spends another 15% of it's length talking about references that are unusable or unavailable is unwatchable. A video where the [auto-censored]ing guy sneezes and doesn't edit it out is un-[auto-censored]ing-believable.
JPTRR
Managing Editor
#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 01:29 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The Black Label / Black Plague / Black Death has been discussed a lot here
BUT
it might be news to those who wasn't on the Forums back then.
People may need reminding .../ Robin
Quite right. Easy to forget that new people join the hobby and what is 'old hat' to us is the first day of the rest of their hobby life.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 05:32 PM UTC
I've got to agree with Kurt about the quality of the so called video "/review". I stoped watching in the first four minutes when my eyes glazed over. But, there's also enough additional on-line evidence about the poor quality of BL kits, and lately Dragon kits in general, which IMHO have steadily been going down hill for years. They do very poor research and shortcut on quality as a result. Yet the prices continue to climb. I haven't bought a Dragon kit for about 5 years now, the last one being their M65 Atomic Cannon, which was a bit of a disappointment for the price. I'm surprised they continue to make kits anymore, their latest offerings have been so poor.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
ctkwok
Joined: May 21, 2018
KitMaker: 197 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 05:41 PM UTC
Well 90% of their latest offerings are X in 1 rehashes so they are technically really good kits... From a decade ago, with jacked up prices 
spongya
Associate Editor
Joined: February 01, 2005
KitMaker: 2,365 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 08:35 PM UTC
So the Amusing Hobby Conqueror a better model? Good to know.
Anyhow, BL kits might be inaccurate in detail, but where else am I going to get an M6, for example?
Anyhow, BL kits might be inaccurate in detail, but where else am I going to get an M6, for example?
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 09:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
.....
Anyhow, BL kits might be inaccurate in detail, but where else am I going to get an M6, for example?
A BL kit, even if inaccurate, is probably a better starting point than a set of drawings and a pack of smooth styrene sheets ....
The warnings about BL kits are for those who can't, or don't want to, do a lot of work to fix a kit.
/ Robin
CMOT
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 11:06 PM UTC
A member of this site has every right to raise a subject that is important to them regardless of the age that complaint technically relates too. Attempts to shut down such a discussion are beneath anyone wishing to do that. If someone wishes to bring up a subject such as black label model kits that is a perfectly acceptable modelling subject and neither members or staff have the right to put someone down for such a subject. Everyone has the right to disagree with the subject discussion as put forward, but the subject itself has the right to be there if relating to a modelling related subject.
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 11:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The warnings about BL kits are for those who can't, or don't want to, do a lot of work to fix a kit.
/ Robin
Well, duh. Why should we spend fifty dollars or more on a kit that isn't even accurate? That's like spending $100 on a pair of trousers and you have to tailor them to fit you.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 12:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
The warnings about BL kits are for those who can't, or don't want to, do a lot of work to fix a kit.
/ Robin
Well, duh. Why should we spend fifty dollars or more on a kit that isn't even accurate? That's like spending $100 on a pair of trousers and you have to tailor them to fit you.
Actually that's done all the time with unfinished pant leg hems.
Sports jackets nearly always need a touch of tailoring. Most men aren't sized according to the charts and patterns.
And the tailor will take in here or let out there as needed and maybe adjust that 38 to your actual 37 3/4 waist size.
Welcome to menswear. I'll go get my measuring tape and chalk.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 12:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
The warnings about BL kits are for those who can't, or don't want to, do a lot of work to fix a kit.
/ Robin
Well, duh. Why should we spend fifty dollars or more on a kit that isn't even accurate? That's like spending $100 on a pair of trousers and you have to tailor them to fit you.
Gotta agree with Robin here. I would rather have an OK kit to start with and then add detail, do corrections, etc. than start with nothing. I have routinely paid $50+ for a kit and then totally cut it apart, rebuilt, scratched details, etc. to get what I want. I almost never build a kit OOB and don't expect it to be anywhere near accurate if I did.
Continually slamming Dragon for their recent offerings is getting old. Obviously they don't care that you and others are all upset by their lower level of accuracy. I am sure it is a sound business decision. Most likely they found that their research and striving for accuracy was not making money. They changed thier business model and are probably now making plenty of money. What most forget is that we uber detail-oriented modelers are the minority in the hobby. Most only care that it looks like whatever they are building, not that it is accurate to the nth degree.
spongya
Associate EditorJoined: February 01, 2005
KitMaker: 2,365 posts
Armorama: 1,709 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 01:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text.....
Anyhow, BL kits might be inaccurate in detail, but where else am I going to get an M6, for example?
A BL kit, even if inaccurate, is probably a better starting point than a set of drawings and a pack of smooth styrene sheets ....
The warnings about BL kits are for those who can't, or don't want to, do a lot of work to fix a kit.
/ Robin
Well, I think I am going to be very controversial here, but in case of the M6... if it looks like one I am happy. There are specific kits I am willing to put the extra time into; most of the cases I can live with inaccuracies if the kit is user friendly, fun to build and detailed. (There are about five people who could tell about these issues, most of them probably on this thread.) I'd rather have a less than accurate kit that is not fighting me every step during the build. (As I could name a couple of models which were very accurate however not exactly fun to build.)
I know, I know, I'm a heretic.
Let him who can overtake me cast the first stone
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 02:52 AM UTC
So now inaccurate kits - wrong angles; wrong dimensions; simplified, wrong, and/or missing details; poor appearance; not to mention erroneous instruction sheets; and at inflated prices - is perfectly acceptable?
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 03:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So now inaccurate kits - wrong angles; wrong dimensions; simplified, wrong, and/or missing details; poor appearance; not to mention erroneous instruction sheets; and at inflated prices - is perfectly acceptable?
If it is the only one available of the subject and I want it bad enough, sure. I am willing to make corrections and fix it if I have to.
Others' opinions may vary.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 03:24 AM UTC
I have no problem "fixing" kits with issues-- I do it all the time and sometimes I don't, preferring just to have a "fun" build. What I have a problem with is paying a huge amount of moolah for a kit with issues that it shouldn't have, then I have to spend more moolah (and my valuable time) to fix. Dragon's business model does indeed seem to be working, but eventually it'll catch up to the division that does scale models-- and when it does that division will be gone. I'd buy their wrong kits if they were reasonably priced. But that's the issue-- they aren't anymore. In a letter to distributors in 2012-13, they as much as said they were going to concentrate on their "toy" and consumer plastics market at the expense of the model division. But even kids can't afford $60 retread kits when the competition has a high quality kit for $40. Sad really-- they were an industry leader and so good for a long time. Not so much now.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 03:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So now inaccurate kits - wrong angles; wrong dimensions; simplified, wrong, and/or missing details; poor appearance; not to mention erroneous instruction sheets; and at inflated prices - is perfectly acceptable?
To many they have always been accepted because they would rather have the built kit on the shelf than a pie in the sky wishlist.
Just don't put a picture of the real thing next to the kit and squint when you look at it a little.
You want something bad enough sometimes you have to compromise.
Once upon a time everything had all those problems and people were grateful just to have the plastic, anything close in plastic.
What Dragon did is inexcusable but we have things never seen before and not likely to be seen again so we are forced to make the best of it and as needed warn the unwary.
And kvetch a little too.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 03:51 AM UTC
not to mention the DS-tracks .....
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 04:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So now inaccurate kits - wrong angles; wrong dimensions; simplified, wrong, and/or missing details; poor appearance; not to mention erroneous instruction sheets; and at inflated prices - is perfectly acceptable?
Given the number of people on here and elsewhere who despise "rivet counters" and claim that "It looks like an X to me", it would not be surprising that it was acceptable to the majority of modelers. People buy those Toon Tanks, you know.
And, if you are the type who builds models in order to have a canvas and a neat backdrop for your photos of boutique paints and finishing supplies, then you probably think they are OK, too.
KL
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 05:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
A member of this site has every right to raise a subject that is important to them regardless of the age that complaint technically relates too. Attempts to shut down such a discussion are beneath anyone wishing to do that. If someone wishes to bring up a subject such as black label model kits that is a perfectly acceptable modelling subject and neither members or staff have the right to put someone down for such a subject. Everyone has the right to disagree with the subject discussion as put forward, but the subject itself has the right to be there if relating to a modelling related subject.
Darren, I just looked over this thread and I did not see anyone saying that the original post was "unacceptable" or that they didn't have a right to post what they did. No one "put down" the OP either. It was said:
> That this was not new (particularly in regards to a kit that came out three or four years ago).
> That a single line reference to a [auto-censored]ty YouTube video does not add much to the existing conversation about BL kits, as opposed to, say, the OP writing up his own impressions or experiences in building the kit. That would be a valuable addition.
> That the video is a partial look at one BL kit. By fairness and just plain logic, you can't talk about the line as a whole off of that little bit of information. (Reality notwithstanding.) It is no different than taking an equally superficial look at a better BL kit (their LANCE LT carrier, perhaps) and declaring based on it that the whole line is solid, just with some minor issues that most modelers should find easily fixable.
KL
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
Armorama: 2,005 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 10:24 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextSo now inaccurate kits - wrong angles; wrong dimensions; simplified, wrong, and/or missing details; poor appearance; not to mention erroneous instruction sheets; and at inflated prices - is perfectly acceptable?
To many they have always been accepted because they would rather have the built kit on the shelf than a pie in the sky wishlist.
Just don't put a picture of the real thing next to the kit and squint when you look at it a little.
You want something bad enough sometimes you have to compromise.
Once upon a time everything had all those problems and people were grateful just to have the plastic, anything close in plastic.
What Dragon did is inexcusable but we have things never seen before and not likely to be seen again so we are forced to make the best of it and as needed warn the unwary.
And kvetch a little too.
Of course nowadays there are plenty of new model manufacturers who might just decide to put out a good kit where one of their rivals had put out a bad one.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 10:32 AM UTC
[/quote]
Of course nowadays there are plenty of new model manufacturers who might just decide to put out a good kit where one of their rivals had put out a bad one. [/quote]
....and they do too. Hence my comment above about Dragon's (the plastic kit side) days being numbered in the future. But they really don't care much about that part of their business since the plastic kit line is not the main moneymaker. If they did care, they'd charge less for junk, or get better at making newer, better kits. And DS plastic would disappear. I guess I sound bitter here-- but I recall a time when Dragon was a leader. I'd like to see them back, but I don't think it's going to happen. Time to let the new guys take over (or give money to the old guys who still compete)-- it's been done before.
VR, Russ
Of course nowadays there are plenty of new model manufacturers who might just decide to put out a good kit where one of their rivals had put out a bad one.
[/quote]....and they do too. Hence my comment above about Dragon's (the plastic kit side) days being numbered in the future. But they really don't care much about that part of their business since the plastic kit line is not the main moneymaker. If they did care, they'd charge less for junk, or get better at making newer, better kits. And DS plastic would disappear. I guess I sound bitter here-- but I recall a time when Dragon was a leader. I'd like to see them back, but I don't think it's going to happen. Time to let the new guys take over (or give money to the old guys who still compete)-- it's been done before.
VR, Russ
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