_GOTOBOTTOM
Figures
Military figures of all shapes and sizes.
Rifle grip through the years
jvazquez
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: September 26, 2006
KitMaker: 857 posts
Armorama: 811 posts
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2007 - 02:47 PM UTC
Forgive me since I'm not a military guy so I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but I have a question about gripping rifles through the years.

I noticed that in years after Desert Storm, US forces as well as those around the world changed the way they held their rifles in their guarded but rested position. It used to be straight across the body with one hand on the grip, the other one on the barrel handle.

Today you see them being slightly hunched toward the ground with a single finger on the grip.

My only question is, was this a standardized change made in the 90's for all US service personal on how to hold their rifles when not firing? Does anyone know why this change was made and its benefits?
Thanks for any help on this subject!

James
AlanL
Visit this Community
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 12, 2005
KitMaker: 14,499 posts
Armorama: 11,675 posts
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2007 - 06:06 PM UTC
Hi James,

Don't know if this answers you question but the practice of keeping your rifle in the ready position in the shoulder, (2nd pic) is simply that with one small movement the weapon is ready to fire.

In the British Army in advance to contact situations this was standard paractice and the drill became move evident when troops found themselves in Urban situations, in towns etc where ambush and sudden attack was much more likely, and more noticable through TV and media coverage.

The practice is used by both US and British Forces. At what point it became standard practice in the US I don't know but it's been used by the British since at least the Malaya campaign, if not before.
It is standard patroling practice.

Maybe be someone can put a more effective timescale on it.

Hope t his helps a bit.

Al
MSGsummit
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Joined: November 16, 2002
KitMaker: 751 posts
Armorama: 545 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 01:31 AM UTC
I think the photo's you have chosen are misleading you a little bit. In the second photo the soldiers look like they are clearing a building. The soldiers must be ready for immediate action during these types of operations hence the position of thier weapons. I'm almost 100% sure these tactics have always been taught to the infantry and is now being taught to all US Soldiers since there is no real front line in Iraq. The 1st photo the Soldier is pulling security. If you notice there are civillians all around him. The position of his weapon is more appriate in this scenerio because it lets the civillians know he means business without being threatening.
CaptainA
Visit this Community
Indiana, United States
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
Armorama: 564 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 05:03 AM UTC
Tactics.

The more open grip position with hands farther apart are more expedient when the tactics call for quickly falling into a prone firing position to lay down a base of fire. In this type of fighting, you would usually have a longer rifle. Aiming for distance shots is the key here.

In urban terain, you dont usually go to a prone position, which would make you an imobile target. In urban terrain and clearing buildings you need to be mobile and move quickly from one firing position to another, often firing around corners without exposing yourself to return fire. Since you will be standing and need your shorter assault weapon to be ready to fire around corners and into openings, you need to have a different ready position. Point and spray are the key words here.
spooky6
Visit this Community
Sri Lanka
Joined: May 05, 2005
KitMaker: 2,174 posts
Armorama: 582 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 11:43 PM UTC
I was in the Sri Lanka Army in '90, and even back then we were using the ready position, but only when we were expecting to take fire at any moment, like when we were moving into an enemy position that had just been evaccuated, or clearing bunkers or buildings. Or if we were assaulting. At these times even LMGs and GPMGs would be carried at the shoulder like a rifle. We wouldn't use this stance on patrol though as it's too tiring for long periods, but we'd switch to it if we were in danger. Lately, however, I've seen soldiers over here with special combat slings on their rifles that allow the weapon to hang barrel-down from the chest with the buttstock against the front of the shoulder, allowing the guy to just raise the barrel to be in a firing stance.

I've heard that this stance originated from the increased use of flak vests, and that it was harder for a soldier to get his weapon into position fast while wearing these bulky jackets, and so it was quicker to move at the ready. But I've seen pix of WW2 soldiers carrying Garands or StG44s in this stance, so it can't be that reason.
darbycrash
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: June 03, 2007
KitMaker: 16 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2007 - 12:59 AM UTC
The finger pointing along the foregrip is a tatic used to bring a weapon to bear on a close target more quickly. In one of his books Col. Ron Ried Daly discusses this technique in detail.
interceptor
Visit this Community
Texas, United States
Joined: May 24, 2007
KitMaker: 27 posts
Armorama: 26 posts
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2007 - 06:17 AM UTC
Another reason for the change is the current urban setting. Look at the first pic (Desert Storm?) and think how hard it would be to go through a doorway with your rifle slung horizontally.
Emeritus
Visit this Community
Uusimaa, Finland
Joined: March 30, 2004
KitMaker: 2,845 posts
Armorama: 808 posts
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2007 - 08:10 AM UTC
I don't claim knowing the ways of the US army, but in the first pic, it looks the soldier is on a patrol, judging from the more rested position of his rifle. The second seems to be from near the enemy, those soldiers are moving in a lowered stance, rifles ready to be raised and fired immediately when required. I would say the difference is dependent on the situation the picture is taken in.

I can't say from personal experience (I served as a signaller), but a friend of mine how served in the Guard Jaeger Regiment (specialized in urban warfare) said that they were taught the same stance as the soldiers in the second pic. In the lowered stance, you present a smaller target for the enemy, and by holding your rifle pointing at the direction you're going with the stock against your shoulder, you can raise it faster and easier for firing.

Btw, I also noticed the soldier in the first pic has his finger on the trigger, while on the lower it's being held off the trigger.
I don't know how this is trained in the US army, but we were taught to keep the safety on and finger off the trigger at all times when not in immediate enemy contact.
But when in a real situation, you probably tend to like the feeling of safety provided by having your finger on the trigger.
armorjunior
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: August 03, 2006
KitMaker: 263 posts
Armorama: 237 posts
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2007 - 10:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Another reason for the change is the current urban setting. Look at the first pic (Desert Storm?) and think how hard it would be to go through a doorway with your rifle slung horizontally.



the first pic is probally from Desert Storm since the Choco-Chip camo was only used in that time peroid
USArmy2534
Visit this Community
Indiana, United States
Joined: January 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,716 posts
Armorama: 1,864 posts
Posted: Monday, July 02, 2007 - 04:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't know how this is trained in the US army, but we were taught to keep the safety on and finger off the trigger at all times when not in immediate enemy contact.
But when in a real situation, you probably tend to like the feeling of safety provided by having your finger on the trigger.



Your first part is on the money. How the guys is holding his hand in the second is the proper form, finger just above the trigger. In a combat situation hand would still more than likely be in that position but the safety may be off. Unless he has a target, finger is off the trigger.

Jeff
jvazquez
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: September 26, 2006
KitMaker: 857 posts
Armorama: 811 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 06:13 AM UTC
Thanks for all the input guys. I just always wondered what the grip was about.

BTW the first pic I think is from a US Marine in Somalia in 1993 while the second one is US Army troops sweeping a house in Iraq in 2004 or 2005.
Murdo
Visit this Community
Scotland, United Kingdom
Joined: May 25, 2005
KitMaker: 2,218 posts
Armorama: 1,050 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 08:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I don't know how this is trained in the US army, but we were taught to keep the safety on and finger off the trigger at all times when not in immediate enemy contact.
But when in a real situation, you probably tend to like the feeling of safety provided by having your finger on the trigger.



Your first part is on the money. How the guys is holding his hand in the second is the proper form, finger just above the trigger. In a combat situation hand would still more than likely be in that position but the safety may be off. Unless he has a target, finger is off the trigger.

Jeff



I can't speak for the modern British Army but in the 1980/90s' you only put your finger on the trigger once safety was off and you meant to fire the weapon.

Being seen with your finger on the trigger at any other time would earn a swift kick!

It actually takes a bit of training to discipline a soldier to keep his finger OFF the trigger because with a pistol grip the trigger finger naturally slides straight on to the trigger.

British soldiers were actually deliberately and carefully trained to rest their finger on the trigger guard and NOWHERE else! The rule was "DO NOT even TOUCH the trigger unless you mean to pull it!"

An ND (Negligent Discharge) was a near hanging offence... If you actually HIT someone with an ND then...
 _GOTOTOP