Just chimming in whilst having a tea-break... .
I did the in-box review for the Brueckenleger, and, as I feel that I have a good knowledge of the Pz. IV, back-up by plenty of references and kits from almost all manufacturers, think that I did a fair and informative job, both on the accuracy and quality. Of course, in-box reviews have their limits, as I found out whilst doing the Blog.
Now the build review is where the problems start. As I drive a truck (18 wheeler) at night to pay the mortgage, and look after my 3 year old daughter during the day, my building time is limited to those moments when my daughter decides to entertain herself ( oh, yeah, as if... ), and the weekend, when my wife is at home during the day. So that means that on some days I don't get a change to do any modelling at all, or very little at the least. factor in the taking of pictures, and up-loading them on site, and you can see that a full build review can take quite some time to get 'on-line'.
I do agree that build reviews are more informative, esspecialy from a fit and 'pitfalls during construction' point of view. But reality just won't make it possible to do this hobby fulltime. Well, not untill I find commissions who can pay me more.. .
Got to go, mini-SWMBO wants to play 'catch'...
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New Kit Review Suggestion
Posted: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 11:40 PM UTC
Grumpyoldman
Consigliere
Florida, United States
Joined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
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Joined: October 17, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 12:32 AM UTC
If my life revolved around nothing but reviews, I would never build a model, go to a movie, eat at a restaurant, or see a play, or get.... err never mind!
As someone who's written a few reviews, I always find these threads interesting.
This site has always- except for a short period of time that is in the past on Armorama welcomed and encouraged members submitting reviews. That policy of member submitted reviews is back, and has been for quite awhile now so I really can't see what the problem is other than Members NOT taking the time to submit reviews. I realize perhaps it's easier to P&M than to actually get out a kit, take some pictures and submit a review. This actually takes some time away from family, friends, modeling, and it's easier to just let someone else do it, and complain because they didn't do their review the way you would like it.
My suggestion would be and has always been, do another review of the subject, expressing your own expert opinion the way you choose to do it. There is no rule that says only one review of "such and such" a kit is allowed. One mans perfect kit is another mans garbage kit. That's life, not everyone is a rivet counter, and a micrometer user. Some people maybe just want to know what's in the box, if the parts fit, how they are molded, and if it's worth the 50 shekels.
I've been building models for over 50 years, I've yet to not buy a model because of a review, or run out and buy a model because of a review. I pick and choose my models by my interest in the subject, not someone else's opinion, after all that's all a review really is---- one persons opinion of a subject, be it a kit, after market item, book, movie, restaurant, play. I also refuse to play the "whose the better reviewer" game so many wish to play. I truly believe each reviewer on all the sites and magazines does his honest best to present an honest review to the best of his knowledge and integrity.
As someone who's written a few reviews, I always find these threads interesting.
This site has always- except for a short period of time that is in the past on Armorama welcomed and encouraged members submitting reviews. That policy of member submitted reviews is back, and has been for quite awhile now so I really can't see what the problem is other than Members NOT taking the time to submit reviews. I realize perhaps it's easier to P&M than to actually get out a kit, take some pictures and submit a review. This actually takes some time away from family, friends, modeling, and it's easier to just let someone else do it, and complain because they didn't do their review the way you would like it.
My suggestion would be and has always been, do another review of the subject, expressing your own expert opinion the way you choose to do it. There is no rule that says only one review of "such and such" a kit is allowed. One mans perfect kit is another mans garbage kit. That's life, not everyone is a rivet counter, and a micrometer user. Some people maybe just want to know what's in the box, if the parts fit, how they are molded, and if it's worth the 50 shekels.
I've been building models for over 50 years, I've yet to not buy a model because of a review, or run out and buy a model because of a review. I pick and choose my models by my interest in the subject, not someone else's opinion, after all that's all a review really is---- one persons opinion of a subject, be it a kit, after market item, book, movie, restaurant, play. I also refuse to play the "whose the better reviewer" game so many wish to play. I truly believe each reviewer on all the sites and magazines does his honest best to present an honest review to the best of his knowledge and integrity.
wbill76
Texas, United States
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Joined: May 02, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 07:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I will be more than glad to do a review if asked - I am sure many modelers would volunteer.
Mike, appreciate your willingness to step up and do reviews. I'm sure your name will get added to the list of prospectives and I encourage you to PM your details and areas of comfort/expertise for reviews to Jim S. so he can have them on file.
On your point about many modelers volunteering, reality and experience does not support that. People don't feel comfortable doing it, don't have the time/resources (including camera), or just plain don't want to...or combination of the above to varying degrees. Calls for reviewers don't get overwhelming responses (but we do appreciate those who do respond greatly) and that's really not that unusual. Vast majority would prefer to be consumers vs. contributors and this is normal behavior for online communities.
Your points about time are well taken, but as a site that depends greatly on outside sources to keep the lights on and the site running, we don't exist in a vaccuum. No one site is an end-all-be-all site and Armorama's view is to encourage our members to submit content and participate to the extent they are able and we do the best we can with those willing and able to contribute. There are lots of armchair experts out there who aren't willing to volunteer their time and effort, for their own reasons, so it can be difficult to match up review items to reviewers at times, again we do the best we can.
Anyone interested in becoming a reviewer is actively encouraged to contact Jim S. and get on the list of site reviewers. We would certainly appreciate the assistance and contribution.
jimbrae
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
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Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 12:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Who cares if the site is infulenced by DML, it's not important unless you don't recognioe it. When you do it doesn't matter.
Just where is this coming from? Frankly i'm getting tired of every couple of days having to constantly refute this. This time, I can't be bothered..
We all know where to find THOSE 'reviews' and it certainly isn't here,
Maybe instead, certain people should look at what proportion of reviews are actually DML products. Of course, if you want to find bias, certain people will have it biting them on their butts. Others seem to welcome the effort that's made by the reviewers on this site...
On a final note, although the more cynical will doubtless find something 'dodgy' as well, as i'm the site's principal contact with DML i've yet to find a single e-mail 'directing' our editorial stance on reviews.
Perhaps those who are so indignant, should direct their anger at those who tried to bully, browbeat and intimidate Terry Ashley's editorial rights on reviews?
No, I thought not...
Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 04:59 PM UTC
Everyone... in case you didn't notice... Jim Rae is back from vacation!
Also... as Mike graciously offered to do a review in the style he proposes (one I would very much like to see btw), I would have sent him the new 38t Smart Kit released to reviewers this week. However we have not yet gotten a sample nor am I sure we will as we haven't been getting every major release as we use to. An oversight on Dragon's part perhaps?
That's okay though Mike. I am going to see about getting you a new Tamiya Hetzer from Great Models so that you can do a review of that kit (since you listed the Hetzer in your areas of interest/experience).
Thanks,
Jim
Also... as Mike graciously offered to do a review in the style he proposes (one I would very much like to see btw), I would have sent him the new 38t Smart Kit released to reviewers this week. However we have not yet gotten a sample nor am I sure we will as we haven't been getting every major release as we use to. An oversight on Dragon's part perhaps?
That's okay though Mike. I am going to see about getting you a new Tamiya Hetzer from Great Models so that you can do a review of that kit (since you listed the Hetzer in your areas of interest/experience).
Thanks,
Jim
Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 06:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Saying "the site is influenced by DML" is rather subjective. Who is meant by "the site"? Me? All the people who have reviewed Dragon items? I suggest people go back to the Dragon summary review page I linked to in my prior post. There are a lot of reviewers there. And some reviewers give high marks on one kit, and low on another. People have to make up their own mind about the reviewer over time to determine what kind of advice they are giving. Personally I wouldn't put much stock in a reviewer who is giving out "highly recommended" or 95+% on almost every review they do no matter who the manufacturer is. It is the reviewer that is damaging their credibility (IMHO) by this action. I have never told a reviewer what to write before they submitted a review, and I have never required anyone to change their opinion about a kit just because they were going to (or did) give it a poor rating. I would rather have honest critical reviews than puff pieces.
The problem with what some of you are asking is that you would in essence like us to mimic Terry Ashley. Having conversed with him on this very subject lately I can tell you what I told him. There is only one of him. If anyone has any clue about how to clone him and get his clone to post reviews here I am all ears.
Case in point. Terry had the Bruckenledger kit up and fully reviewed in depth before I could even do a photo preview of the kit. And it was 1-2 weeks before we had our inbox review of the kit on the site. So no... it is not easy to beat him to getting a full build review up (not that he had done a full build at that point).
It seems to me that any and all information regarding a kit is useful. That includes 90+ production sprue photos, another reviewers impressions of the kit, a blog of the kit being built on the site, and later a full build review. Why just do the one thing? This makes no sense to me.
If getting people to review kits was so easy why don't we have a flood of reviews waiting in our review system as well? We use to get user submitted reviews much more frequently. But of course this was before we started to get kits from manufacturers.
Finally in closing of course I myself personally am influenced by Dragon. They spend a considerable amount of money in sending us kits for review, kits for the model of the month competition and Dragon USA obviously advertises on the site. They *influence* me in that I feel responsible for this generosity and am as such compelled to try to get the reviews they are expecting up in a timely manner. Something that our readers (most of them anyways) are also looking for. Do they influence me to interfere with reviewers and change what is written? Certainly not. Anyone who has reviewed a supplied kit can testify to that fact. Also anyone who thinks that ANY of the various sites or magazines that publish reviews are not influenced in the same way I am are kidding themselves. In short, Armorama is no more influenced than Fine Scale Modeler, Hyperscale, ARC, Missing Lynx, Military Modelling, or the rest. We just happen to get more supplied kits from DML than any other manufacturer, thus the sometimes tilted number of DML reviews.
Other vendors are free to help correct this imbalance. But then I will have to find even more reviewers.
Cheers,
Jim
Hi Jim, my point exactly, all sites have to have sponsors, DML sponsor a lot of stuff here, and I don't believe I even hinted that the reviews might in some way be infulanced by this, it's just a simple fact that the connection means that you get more of their kits to review in the first palce so my point:
'Who cares if the site is infulenced by DML, it's not important unless you don't recognioe it. When you do it doesn't matter. '
is perfectly correct and your point that 'Other vendors are free to help correct this imbalance. But then I will have to find even more reviewers. '
equally correct.
If folks don't recognise this connection then they might think your being bias which in fact is not the case. In fact it's the members here who benefit by this connection.
I really get fed up with folks taking what I say out of contect to play some kind of stupid one up-manship game.
I don't believe I can make that any clearer.
Al
Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 10:43 AM UTC
Ah... so you meant influenced 'in a good way' as we get more kits? Sorry for the confusion on my part Alan.
In lieu of what I wrote in my prior post though it would appear other sites are now more influenced than we are.
Cheers,
Jim
In lieu of what I wrote in my prior post though it would appear other sites are now more influenced than we are.
Cheers,
Jim
Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 07:10 PM UTC
Hi Jim,
Yip, never had a problem with the DML connection nor any other connections to manufacturers. Those links provide insight and update to what's going on, which can only benefit the members.
Stong links to manufacturers are necessary if folks want the latest news and previews of spurs etc are quite useful to see what's in the box.
I don't think DML get a particular easy ride here, folks are quite vocal and critical when they want to be, and that's as it should be.
Time for work.
Al
Yip, never had a problem with the DML connection nor any other connections to manufacturers. Those links provide insight and update to what's going on, which can only benefit the members.
Stong links to manufacturers are necessary if folks want the latest news and previews of spurs etc are quite useful to see what's in the box.
I don't think DML get a particular easy ride here, folks are quite vocal and critical when they want to be, and that's as it should be.
Time for work.
Al
Posted: Friday, August 03, 2007 - 12:07 PM UTC
Apparently I spoke too soon as the Dragon 38t w/ interior was waiting for me at my mailbox today. Not sure why we got it 5-7 days later than some of the other sites. Hey DML... if anything we need them sooner than them as we have to re-ship. Just asking.
We also got our first kit from Stevens International (Thanks Mike!) A Bronco Humber Scout Car Mk. I in 1/35th scale.
If there is anyone who hasn't put their name in who has some background and references on this vehicle please let me know.
Thanks,
Jim
We also got our first kit from Stevens International (Thanks Mike!) A Bronco Humber Scout Car Mk. I in 1/35th scale.
If there is anyone who hasn't put their name in who has some background and references on this vehicle please let me know.
Thanks,
Jim
DaGreatQueeg
Napier, New Zealand
Joined: August 01, 2005
KitMaker: 1,049 posts
Armorama: 841 posts
Joined: August 01, 2005
KitMaker: 1,049 posts
Armorama: 841 posts
Posted: Friday, August 03, 2007 - 12:45 PM UTC
Hi Gents,
Interesting discussion, esp as I have just completed my first review also (Dragon 72nd 251/7 D).
I do think its important to get an in-box review done quickly and you can still get a useful impression of features of the kit from the box. However I do like the idea of the unpainted OOB build and will endevour to do so next time - I had a bit too much customers work to clear this time.
As an aside I was a little unsure how to score the kit so looked at a lot of other reviews to get a feel for it - still found the score a bit subjective though. On one hand its a kit i would buy myself anyway and as usual for later Dragon kits, the moulding quality is superb (crisp!!!). But it did have ommissions which stopped it being great (correct internal stowage) hence I gave it an 85%. I also didnt run a ruler over it mainly because its far from the first release of the 251/D series so felt dimensions were covered elsewhere ........
Anyway for myself I found it a different way of looking at a kit and will endeavour to improve ...........
cheers
Brent
Interesting discussion, esp as I have just completed my first review also (Dragon 72nd 251/7 D).
I do think its important to get an in-box review done quickly and you can still get a useful impression of features of the kit from the box. However I do like the idea of the unpainted OOB build and will endevour to do so next time - I had a bit too much customers work to clear this time.
As an aside I was a little unsure how to score the kit so looked at a lot of other reviews to get a feel for it - still found the score a bit subjective though. On one hand its a kit i would buy myself anyway and as usual for later Dragon kits, the moulding quality is superb (crisp!!!). But it did have ommissions which stopped it being great (correct internal stowage) hence I gave it an 85%. I also didnt run a ruler over it mainly because its far from the first release of the 251/D series so felt dimensions were covered elsewhere ........
Anyway for myself I found it a different way of looking at a kit and will endeavour to improve ...........
cheers
Brent
Posted: Friday, August 03, 2007 - 04:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Jason makes many good points. Whats the rush - people still buy magazines for their reviews and articles and those are really delayed compared to the internet postings.
To summarize a few points made so far:
1. Shots of sprues and description of items in box - manufacturer could provide this (probably already does on their website). What is the diffrence between sprue shots and CAD renderings DML provides in their announcemnts?
2. Build vs. in box reviews - Do a build review first and it will get 10K hits. First out always gets more hits.
3. I appreciate all the effort and time that goes into an initial in box review. However, put that time and effort into a build review - no AM, no paint. It might take a little longer but you will have a good review out, not a brochure. The shiping times from vendor to armorama to reviewer - still has to happen regardless if its in box review or build review.
4. Knowledgeable reviewers - they are out there. Most in box reviews do NOT go into details of measurement comparisons like Mike did in the Pzr III review. Honestly, I could forgo the accuracy research on many subjects - like the dickermax (who knows how accurate it is anyway). The subject experts will ALWAYS chime in on accuracy shortcomings (see any thread regarding a new sherman release). A build review is going to address ease of build, problems with instructions, fit prblems, options, versions, etc.
However, with some subjects like the M1A2 SEP there are LOTS of experts on this site regarding the M1A2 and the fact that other mfrs have versions of the M1A2, a detailed build review with good research and comparisons to the already released kits would be expected.
I would gladly wait another 2-3 weeks to get a build review over an in box review. I still buy MMiR form the LHS and read their reviews and articles even though the kit has already been released for some time (the mag is quarterly published).
I just dont see the need to rush a review out and do the in box look to beat the ship date to retail (the 2-3 week period you mention). Just publish the CAD renderings and brochure info till the actual build review is done.
Hi Mike ... just some of my thoughts on your post ..... as I see the quicker "in the box" review as preferable.
I don’t know anybody who buys magazines, specifically for reviews any longer ... that boat has sailed quite some time ago. In fact the sales of magazines has reduced drastically over the last 10 years. Seen some figures somewhere about a year ago, all the big magazines have been hit hard by the advance of the Internet.
1. Could the manufacturer be trusted to focus in on soft details, ejection marks, heavy flash or other blemishes like in an independent site/magazine would? CAD renderings are the perfect ideal.. Sprues show the reality of the finished product.
2. While the build review is being done, another site posts the "in box " review, and Armorama loses out on a high number of hits .. which in turn affects the economics of sponsorship,etc.
3/4. "forgo the accuracy research on many subjects" and build straight out of the box, no aftermarket, no paint. What happens if there is an apparent mistake on some of the detail parts, or missing details .... build it wrong anyway?? This is where your suggestion falls down big time in my books. Would it not be better to add that AM part, or scratch the proper detail?
In the modern world of competitors releasing pretty much the same subjects, it’s the details and what’s in the box that sells, IMO.
Personally I love complete builds, don’t get me wrong, but they wont influence whether I buy a kit or not. My mind has already been made up by what I’ve seen, and can rely on a nucleus of really good reviewers. I can understand you want to see full build reviews … who doesn’t? … but why at the expense of the “in the box” reviews.
Ease of build, problems with instructions and fit problems, IMO, are general modelling issues that most can cope with. I have seen cases where a certain modeller had serious problems with a kit and another sailed though it, or vice versa. So it’s possible that the build review doesn’t cover for every builder’s ability either.
Options and versions are common “in the box” review material as well.