Please forgive me if i sound stupid for asking this, but i have never worked with the material the extra heads in the premium dragon kits are made from. is there a good baseprimer or type of paint that will stick to these better mine is flaking off.

thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide.
Gary Smith
http://www.smithmilitarymodeling.com

I use Windsor and Newton Acrylic's for the body's and faces. A great guy by the name of Matt Yate's told me to try them out for my soldiers, though I believe he uses Oils for his faces.
David

i'll have to look those up and give them a try, the extra heads are more like rubber instead of the plastic the bodies are made from and so far no primer or paint i have in my collection will stick,

thanks for the suggestion,
Gary

What primer are you currently using?

The heads aren't rubber, but a kind of plastic - the same DML use for their G2 figures. I forget the exact name.

Rudi

I have tried several, anything from flat black paint to tamiya surface primer. currently i get the best performance on the plastics out of believe it or not Krylon ultra flat black camouflage with the fusion technology. that stuff works great won't hardly scratch off and molds itself without compromising detail. but with those heads they are more squishy and flexable and i haven't found one yet that will stick, the harder plastics have been no problem, as well as resin, but no luck so far on this material.

thanks for helping,
Gary

Hey Gary,

Which Premium set are you busy with? I'd like to investigate further. It sounds to me like the heads are almost like vinyl (like some of the other extras DML include in their new kits), in which case the primer you mentioned won't work on it - it's meant for harder surfaces, incl hard vinyl.

Rudi

i'm actually working on a few kits together, i'm kit bashing a bit. the heads came from a couple of different kits, i believe them to be Gen2 and premium, one set i know for sure was Panzergrenadier Division 'Grobdeutschland' Karachev 1943 kit #6304. but they will be used on one or two figures from kits #6282 Hohenstaufen Division Normandy 1944 and #6309 Verfugungstruppe France 1940.

i appreciate the trouble and will be very happy to hear from you on this. the figures are the last remaining pieces to what is shaping up to be a nice diorama.

Gary

There still seems to be a certain amount of confusion as to what the composition of this material is. Let me try and explain . They started using it as 'DS' (Dragon Styrene) and it's a mixture of vinyl and styrene. In my opinion, it's an excellent material for heads as it seems to hold detail better than conventional styrene. As I always undercoat in enamel anyway, I find it holds the paint perfectly.

It hasn't been used much for heads, but you will find it in their braille-scale armor and is used (with excellent results) for 1/35th scale Sherman tracks..

Hey Gary,

Found a few reviews of the kits you mention:

Panzergrenadier Div. Grosdeutschland - review says that extra heads are vinyl, although it is more than likely the DS Jim mentions above.
Verfügungstruppe, France 1940 - "normal" plastic
Hohenstaufen Division, Normandy 1944 - Gen2

Unfortunately none of these actually cover priming

You could maybe PM Henk, who wrote the Gen2 review and check what he used to prime the figures with.

I must admit, I normally use Tamiya Light Grey Surface Primer and I find it sticks to everything... that said I have tried it on metal, resin, plastic, wood, stone, plaster... but not vinyl or DS

Will keep searching... but in the interim perhaps you should make a "Priming Dragon Styrene" post as folks may not associate the title of this thread with the afforementioned

Rudi

DS is a trade name for the mixture of styrene and vinyl that dragon are using. One thing is for sure, they are changing the composition of this material ... but the problem is ... they dont identify the different compositions of DS. The two examples Ive had experience with, had a night/day difference, so its clear they are still developing this technology and appear to be going in the right direction. Their first composition/releases seem to be where most of the problem lies, but the newer versions have been much better. But it may be the case where they have the older raw material left, and are using it now again, for these small items (?).

The DS figure that came with the earlier Sd.Kfz 251 (3´n1 D versions) must have had a higher percentage of vinyl in the mix, because the usual cements I use, did not work, nor would paint stick to them.
The DS tracks that came with the Tarawa sherman, cemented easily and perfectly, and took paint, washes, and abuse with pastels no problem.

thanks guys, i love that everyone here is so helpful i hope to return the favor someday. i think i may use your idea on the seperate post later today. so far it looks as it may be the case of i have the worse of the two examples of this material.

thanks again,
Gary

I seem to remember an article in a magazine about painting the old airfix polystyrene figures it was a considerable time ago but I can recall reading that if you primed the figs with a water diluted coat of unibond it would act as a sealant and stop the paint flaking off it might be worth giving it a try.Idont know if you can purchase unibond in the US but there must be something similar in the diy shops.Hope this may be of some help.

Phil H

I must admit I have no idea what Unibond is, but that made me think of something... what about trying to prime with thinned putty? You can thin Tamiya putty with Acetone free nail varnish remover and apply it with a brush. Just make sure it's acetone free, else you end up with not much more than a blob of plastic...

How about giving the surfaces a brushing with some mild abrasive. I was thinking along the lines of a kitchen cleaner, like and this is UK product name Cif,.

It comes in a squeezy container, comes out as a cream and you clean surfaces, sinks etc. with it.

A small amount on a old toothbrush and give it a mild scrubbing just to key the surface, or failing that an alternative might be toothpaste as its also a mild abrasive.

Don't go too mad and wear down the detail. Then a light dusting spray with Acrylic primer, once you've dried the heads, say the type found in car accessory shops.

Alan

I know the stuff you are talking about. It is like the material they make their one piece tracks from. I tried to do the heads and had the same problem with paint flaking off. I ended up using resin heads as I didn't feel the "rubber" heads were worth the aggravation.

Gary-
You're on the right track by using the Krylon 'Fusion' product.This was developed to paint vinyl patio/deck furniture. I suggest priming the heads with this and then priming again with your preferred primer. From the sounds of the various experiences with DS material,it might be a recycled blend of vinyl/styrene that has wide ratio specs for the time being. That is,one load of raw DS material might be 45%vinyl/55%styrene and this load does say 2500 kits worth of parts.Next load comes in at 25%vinyl/75% styrene and does the next 2500 kits.
Might be hard for the raw material supplier to hit a consistant percentage mark in it's process.
FWIW
cheers!

Hi Rick. I would consider this a "bread and butter" subject ... There should be no problems getting the percentage right, 100% of the time, if there is any decent process control. Even regrind will have the right initial percentages .. but the actual properties will have changed slightly ... thats why regrinding in the medical buisness is a no-go!

hey guys thanks for all of the input, i bought a jar of Mr. Surfacer 1000 at the local hs today and so far it sticks pretty well actually taking some rough scratching to bother it at all. so i think for now i'll let this cure and paint over it to see what i get. if anyone else has used this on similar materials i would lve to hear the results.

thanks again,
Gary Smith

Frank,you are correct however, the key word is "should" for 100% first time quality.Unfortunatly this is often a resident in 'Perfect World' The supplier may have caught the error but was granted a waiver in exchange for discounts now or future. As far as medical applications,as well as electrical ones,regrind is a no go due to undesirable impurities that would affect performance of the final product. Virgin materials are always specified for these applications.
Cheers!

@ Rick ... I suppose all of these are possible ... but as Dragon wont be releasing a breakdown of their material (old or new) or why this happens, we will never know for sure.

@ Gary ... good to know that Mr. Surfacer is working as a primer. Please keep us updated.
You might want to try gluing this material as well ... does your normal cement work ... does superglue work? Might be worth experimenting with this as well .... wouldn´t be cool if you spent time painting only to find you can´t attach it properly!

Great idea, i'll try gluing before painting just to be sure. i have several sets of these so i'll glue an extra before finishing the one i need, good catch thank you or thinking of that.
i'll keep everyone posted, the diorama will soon be posted on this site i hd posted the begining in the dio section, but at that time had not decided figures or vehicle now the figures are all thats left to complete.

thanks again
Gary
http://www.smithmilitarymodeling.com

Hi again Gary ,
Ref unibond ,unibond is a brand name for Pva adhesive as the name suggests it is used for a number of diy and building jobs primarily as an adhesive ,sealer etc its white in colour and can be thinned right down with water to whatever consistency you require.
Cheers Phil H

Just an addendum, I meant the old Airfix polythene figures you know the bendy type ones.

Phil H

Very happy to report the Mr. Surfacer 1000 has worked very well as a base primer and allowed all the paint to stay on even with normal handling and even some scratching. i also have tried a glue that has worked as well, it's brand name is TENAX 7R "space age plastic welder"
one again thanks to everyone who helped me and i hope this post helps others who want to use the heads made from Dragon Styrene.

Gary Smith
http://www.smithmilitarymodeling.com

The "bonus" driver figures DML put in with the German halftracks are all moulded in this DS stuff, also the radio operators in the Sdkfz251/6. I've had no problems painting them with Humbrol enamel, as Jim says. Since Humbrol is so widely available, cheap & takes thinners well, I'd suggest undercoating with this, if you want to use acrylics on them. Conversely, they are a pain to assemble, normal plastic glue doesn't work, you have to use Superglue. Personally, I don't really like them, for all the "better" moulding characteristics, as I had a lot of trouble getting them to fit anything & because of the glue problem, and their general "bendiness", it's difficult to cut them to fit then bond them again. Also flash removal is awkward, as it you file or sand them they just "burr", so the only way to clean them is a very sharp scalpel..