Hi chaps
I am trying to get hold ot the markings for LT GORMANS Sherman that rammed a king tiger in Normandy in 1944. For a future diorama, I know the name of his vehicle but can anyone tell me where it was painted on the tank.Also what was the T,number I can make out a few figures in a small photo I have. Did the turret have any squadron markings or numbers at all. Any help would be greatly accepted. Many thanks Matt Edwards

Matt

Just a suggestion, try changing the thread title to closer to your question, "Sherman" in it might get those Sherman guys reading it and come across with the info.

Alan

As a start try this article

http://mmcalc.tripod.com/Shermans/Ballyragget/Ballyragget_at_Goodwood.html

The squadron marking is carried on the hull side on Irish Guards Shermans and is blue as they are the junior regiment in the brigade. There's at least one other Armorama member with an interest in this subject ....

BTW the Guards Armoured Division was equipped with the Sherman V, the colour plate in the link above is from a more innocent age.

David

That would be an interesting dio.. and quite the story too.

Hi Matt,

The story of Lt Gorman (MM) is a very interesting one. After ramming the King Tiger he went back took control of a Firefly Vc who's commander had been decapated and chased off 3 Tigers that were acting as escort for the King lol, lol. It was for this action he received the Military Medal.

Just prior to ramming the vehicle he fired a shell into the King Tiger that scared the hell out of the crew who abondoned their vehicle after it was rammed.

Here's some details:

M4A4 Sherman Mk V
T147745
Ballyragget

Crew who embarked with the vehicle

255712 Lt JR Gorman Tp Cmdr
2722581 LCpl Baron J - D/Mech
2719200 Gdsm Scholes a - G/Mech
6984228 Gdsm Agnew J - G/Op
2723173 Gdsm Melville A - G/Mech

He was Troop Commander of No 4 Tp, No 2 Squadron 2nd battalion Irish Guards (Armoured)

Battalion Colour, St Patricks Blue Square. Regimental History states that the squadron sign was worn on the turret side but the pics would indicate that it was about centre of the hull.

Vehicle names I've seen on the side hull sometimes on the front plate and also on the drivers, co drivers front.

WD number was carried between the ribs on the transmission and on the rear under the bin. AOS 53 (White on Red) with Guards Divisional SIgn (The ever watchful eye) lol, lol.

There's some debate as to whether the pics shown in David's link is Gorman's tank, but I doubt there were many King Tigers rammed by a Mk V.

Hope this helps and look forward to seing your dio.

Cheers


Al

Hi Matt,

This is not perfect but my attempt at an IG tank, you can see the layout of the markings. Also noted on most IG tanks was the spear wheel carried on the front LHS.

Hope this helps:







This is a Mk V with the early style of gun mantle. There was very lttle in the way of kit carried on the front of the tanks in the early part of the campaign.

IWM had some good pics of the Mick tanks.

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/

Cheers

Al

You'll be lucky to get much help there!!! However, if you want a copy of the Regimental History The Irish Guards in the Second World War by Desmond Fitzgerald or the Anthology The Armoured Micks 1941 to 1945 by Capt V Taylor and Capt S Faris then they are available through RHQ IG. Both books are an excellent read and give a good factuial information as well as first hand accounts of the fighting.

I found the Guards Museum to be utterly useless when I was doing my research.

There is also a book on the life of Sir John Gorman MM which is an interesting read in which he gives an account of the action, which is also covered in the Regimental History.

Cheers

Al

Dear chaps
Thanks for all your help.One thing that puzzles me is that in the photo I can see on the Shermans hull,what looks like a painted on square,where possibly the squadron marking of a triangle should be.Is this a shipping stencil,or some armour caught by the light at an angle.Also the WD number of T147745 given for this tank doesn't look like the one in the photo.T232???. Any ideas?.Thanks all again for your help.

Hi Matt

Lt Gorman was 4 Troop leader No. 2 (=B) Squadron, so the squadron marking should be a square as it appears in the photo. Looks like an applique panel has been blown off the hull side just to the rear of the marking too.

David

Incredible story. It shows how confusing and scary real battles are. Especially nice to read if from both side's prespecive.
(I think I might steal this idea, too, if you don't mind.)

Hi Matt,

My tanks are from 1 Sqn hence the triangle. 2 Sqn would have had a square. It is possible the troop number was inside the square but I didn't find any evidence of this. I had a great debate about this picture, whether or not it fitted the written evidence. It is supposed to have been taken almost a year after the even, you must decide for yourself but I have my doubts.

Al

Hi Matt,

Re the WD number, the number I've given you is from the Battalion Listing that shows that as being his vehicle at the point of embarkation. None of the 4 Tp MK Vs have a WD Number starting in T232 at that point in time, although interestingly enough 4 Tp had 2 Sherman Fireflies allocated at that point also.

The only T232 number I can see on the listing at that time is T232145 'Ardmore' which was a Mk V in No 4 Tp No 1 Squadron.and was allocated to Lt MA Callender.

Did he have a re[placement tank? I could find no reference to it and this was fairly early on in the campaign so..........?

Al

Thanks again for all your help.I think I may have found a reason for the differenf WD number on the one in the photo from that of the listing for Lt Gormans tank. I've just read an account of the incident in "BRITISH TANKS IN NORMANDY" by Ludovic Fortin and he states that Lt Gormans tank was stuck just before this incident so he went and commanded another. Which he then used to ram the tiger. Before getting hold of a Firefly.Makes a lot more sense of the photo now. Thanks again chaps,I can now start buying all that I need. MATT E

Hi Matt,

Well spotted, that sorts out your query, and gives a lot more credability to the picture.

Cheers

Al