Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
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Soda boxes from Tumpeter
bulivyf
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 03:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

All of which begs the question...did either Macello or Trumpeter get permission to use the company logos of Coke, Pepsi, or any of the bottled water companies?



Hi,
You have good opinion, but without Marcelo boxes you must these hand paint.
You don` know that Marcelo make of this boxes for Armorama members free and on all OIF models I see this boxes.

Or better is write on Coca Cola boxes any nonsense?
Miloslav
seb43
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 04:56 AM UTC
Well This is going to be a nice thread.
Actually I have seen a lot debate concerning the use of Copyright and Trademark use.
If you reminder correctly guys, this was already discuss on the Michelin tires which was misspell in order to not infringe TM issue.

Point here as Vance and AJ Fleche stated, there is some issue concerning copyright the Marcelo work. For my point of view since Marcelo release his work for free here, copy of his post date Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 05:06 PM BST

"Hello!

I just finished yesterday a new set of water boxes in 1/35 scale for my OIF models. Itīs now a full sheet of Mozn boxes. As a good fellow, Iīd like to share them with you!

They were totaly made by me using Corel Draw and real boxes pictures. Itīs not a copy of any aftermarket product. Itīs done using real pictures as references and my drawing skills.

Feel free to download, use in your OIF projects and share with your friends!

Modern Arabic Water Boxes - Download link here

*** I updated the link above. Itīs now easier to dowload and there are new boxes brands!!!***

I hope you enjoy and Iīll wait to see them here over the kits soon!!

Bye,

Marcelo"

So releasing for free his work and even worth,with out (C) copyright sign, Marcelo lost his copyright of the work.

In conclusion Marcelo's work belong to the public domain and everybody can use it for free.

I am not a lawyer but I am maybe wrong.
Cheers
Seb


Edit: Trumpeter doesnot also have the right for copyright
bulivyf
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 05:29 AM UTC


Hmm,
Marcelo don`t write free use for business.
I ask Marcelo about license because I use this boxes for BUSINESS!!! I don`t use this free as professional. Or I can use all
parts which don`t have Đ. This is in possible.
Miloslav
[/quote]
seb43
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 05:46 AM UTC
Ok Milo
If you release a creation artistic one without you putting copyright sign and you are doing it for free, you are loosing your right.
In my work we dont go public before filling patent application, if you do so you are loosing your right. Same apply here.
Maybe Vance can comment on that but for my Point of View.
Cheers
Seb
vanize
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 05:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


So releasing for free his work and even worth,with out (C) copyright sign, Marcelo lost his copyright of the work.



actually, that is not true at all. the copyright exists by default. all the (C) really means is that the strictest sense of copyrighting rights are reserved.

Even open source software, which has no visible copyrighting on it, and has on it an understanding of free public use, has copyrights. A company like microsoft cannot pick up open source code and incorperate it into one of its products that it then charges people for.

copyrights exist regardless of use or non-use of symbology.

copyrights and patents are two totally different things.

for example, a peice of software can automatically have copyright protection, but if it does something special an unique, a patent could be applied for it as well. the patent covers the idea, the copyright protects the code that was written.

In this case, a patent would cover the concept of printed 1/35 scale soda and water boxes (which probably isn't possible to patent, but this is just an example). the copyright protects the work done by the person who made what we see above, but does not prevent others from making their own, different versions. (that was also covered in the seminar actually)



seb43
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 05:59 AM UTC
Vance
Sorry for using the patent as a example that is not really related to copyright I have to admit and coming back to the copyright of Marcelo's work, Just asking my friend at IP dept at work, and he told me that it is not so clear who is holding the copyright on such type of work since Pepsi CocaCola have been not contact for their approval of using their logo.
But He told me that Marcelo should send a letter to Trumpeter so settle the case and ask for more information.
Let see what future will bring
Cheers
Seb
jaypee
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 06:14 AM UTC
The use of pespi / coke logos would probably fall under "fair use" It's not like marcelo is making cola. But trumpeters use of marcelo's drawings is not as it is a straight copy as usage is the same (for scale models). They should have asked for use but then it is different culture toward these things in China. How marcelo should proceed is entirely up to him and what he would want out of it. "fair use" isn't recognized everywhere, it is in the US but not in the UK.
I'm just layman interested in it so don't take my word for anything here.
vanize
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 06:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Vance
Sorry for using the patent as a example that is not really related to copyright I have to admit and coming back to the copyright of Marcelo's work, Just asking my friend at IP dept at work, and he told me that it is not so clear who is holding the copyright on such type of work since Pepsi CocaCola have been not contact for their approval of using their logo.
But He told me that Marcelo should send a letter to Trumpeter so settle the case and ask for more information.
Let see what future will bring
Cheers
Seb



no need to apologize!

and your point is totally true given the trademarking issues.

while the copyright is clear, it is mostly irrelevant in the face of the trademark thing.

and fair use is a big gray area unless it is strictly for educational purposes.

using it to make a printed sheet for you and your buddies is not worth the time for coke or pepsi to track down and fight anyway though, fair use or not (and it is probably fair use). Also, I can't image coke would object to the free product placement.

trumpeter selling their logo is definitely NOT fair use though.
sopmod6
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 06:30 AM UTC
Vance,
What of the tradedress/tradmark issue? If it looks like their logo, isn't that still a copyright violation on whomever uses it without permission?
AikinutNY
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 06:50 AM UTC
In a nut shell if Andy Worhol paints a Coca-cola logo on canvas, he has not violated their copyright. The orginal boxes were "Free" and not done for profit so there should be no problem there.

But if you put the logo on a T-shirt and sell it you can get in trouble. Now if you put the same label on a bottle of soda, look out for the police and the lawyers!

I seem to remember a E-100 Ausf B turret that they claim to have done. Where was that? Hummmmm! See a pattern developing here?
vanize
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 07:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Vance,
What of the tradedress/tradmark issue? If it looks like their logo, isn't that still a copyright violation on whomever uses it without permission?



yes, but as mentioned earlier, there are "fair use" clauses.

also, trademarking and copyrighting are, like copyrighting and patenting, two different things.

trademarking is a lot stricter that copyrighting, which means the "fair use" of it is a lot more restricted as well.

the copyright exists regardless of the trademark question. if the trademark question was resolved, the copyright on the creation would still exist unchanged.

conversely, if the copyright is released for general use by the owner of it, it does not at all affect the fact that someone could get sued for using a trademark without permission.

note that changing the size or even misspelling a trademark is generally insufficient to get around trademarking, which means making it "coko-cola" or "coka-cola" instead of "coca-cola" doesn't protect you if it still has the same swirly white script on a red background.

However, Coke is not going to create bad PR for themselves by chasing down modelers who make something like this and distribute it on a sight like this, and neither is Pepsi. In fact, they are going to like the free product placement. But once people start making a profit by including their logos in a boxed kit that is for sale and therefor used as a gimmick to increase sales, then they might get pissy.
mikeo
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 07:19 AM UTC
[ However, Coke is not going to create bad PR for themselves by chasing down modelers who make something like this and distribute it on a sight like this, and neither is Pepsi. In fact, they are going to like the free product placement. But once people start making a profit by including their logos in a boxed kit that is for sale and therefor used as a gimmick to increase sales, then they might get pissy.[/quote]

Being 'Pissy' has nothing to do with it. If a company's trademarked name (like "Pepsi") is used by another for profit, they MUST take legal action aganist the other company or they will loose the right to claim that trademark. We had a local brew-up here some time ago when the "Krispy Kream" donut people found out that a tiny local ice cream stand was calling itself "Krispy Kream" The Corp. sued and got a lot of local bad press for it. The published their explanation of why they had to sue.

What Trumpeter is doing is outright theft. (Again - E-100, Stryker tow bars) If they are called on it, they will probably have to settle with the injured parties (again - E-100) Until they get caught, they will continue to do whatever they can get away with. It is a shame (but not suprising) to see a corporation doing buisness without the slightest shred of honor.
bulivyf
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 07:57 AM UTC
Hi all,
I don`t know what here handle trademark problems. All producer must proceed according to laws his land.
Producer from China proceed according to Chinese laws. All owner trademark must registered this mark in all lands on all categories. Of course for T-shirt, bottles, here is registered many firm but for modelers accessories nobody. Only Ford, GM,
Audi, VW..... has register on modeler categories in my land.
Here is problem next. Big firm use drawing without permission drawing owner.
Miloslav

vanize
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 08:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Audi, VW..... has register on modeler categories in my land.
Here is problem next. Big firm use drawing without permission drawing owner.
Miloslav




well, rest assured, Coke has registered their trademarks everywhere.

as for your second point, about big firms becoming the owner, not true. it is only true to the extent that the little guy is not likely to create a lawsuit over it.

as for laws of the land - if trumpeter wants to sell in the USA, they have to obey USA copyright laws.

copyright laws do differ a little from country to country, but not so much that this isn't a clear copyright violation pretty much anywhere. china protects it's companies from international law though, but that protection can only go as far as thei borders. Law suits can make it too uncomfortable for importers to bother with handling a big violators goods.

While trumpeter could resort to just sending things mail order to other countries to completely circumvent the internation copyright laws, I doubt that would be very profitable for them.
sopmod6
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 08:32 AM UTC
So if this "Law of the Land" issue is not a problem concerning said product to produce in the Czech Republic (as stated), is it still legal to sell it overseas here in the US or wherever else these companies may hold an interest? If so, I'm sure there is a slew of model manufacturers who should get slapped on the wrist for doing what they do. That said, I know Trump isn't the only guilty party here.
Next thing you know, the US Postal service is gonna have a fit seeing all those teeny weeny little Priority boxes on model kits, and we all know you don't mess with the US Gov't.
Same for Gulfa, Aquafina, Doritos, and blah,blah,blah....
Personally, I'm buying the kit for that itself.

bulivyf
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 09:48 AM UTC
Vance,
you have permission for use official state symbol UDSSR. What you say if somebody use US eagle wit personal symbol.
Miloslav
bulivyf
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 12:10 PM UTC
Hi all,

After consultation with author I take out from my produce all Coca cola, pepsi, Mountain Dew, postal boxes, Marlboro, Camel boxes and next which according to this discussion are without US law.

Miloslav
vanize
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 12:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Vance,
you have permission for use official state symbol UDSSR. What you say if somebody use US eagle wit personal symbol.
Miloslav



LOL

I prefer "USSA" though!
fotoman07
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Posted: Friday, September 19, 2008 - 03:45 PM UTC
Hey Trumpeter, make some WW1 armor models willya?!
pzcreations
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Posted: Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 03:52 AM UTC
wasnt there some fuss going on a while back about the BR-52 and copyright issues with Trumpeter? seems I recall soemthing about that as well.
pzcreations
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Posted: Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 03:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Next thing you know, the US Postal service is gonna have a fit seeing all those teeny weeny little Priority boxes on model kits



Think they would only say something if you were to try and sell them to ship stuff in
dropshot
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Posted: Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 10:57 AM UTC
I think it is ludicrous that anybody could succeed in a breech of copyright claim against the Chinese; they donīt give a damn. Look how long itīs been going on. Miroslav as you are a Czech citizen could you explain to me how Budweiser in the Czech Republic shares the same name as one in the U.S. which is a very poor comparison to the Czech version.
bulivyf
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Posted: Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 08:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I think it is ludicrous that anybody could succeed in a breech of copyright claim against the Chinese; they donīt give a damn. Look how long itīs been going on. Miroslav as you are a Czech citizen could you explain to me how Budweiser in the Czech Republic shares the same name as one in the U.S. which is a very poor comparison to the Czech version.



Maybe you can look on official site.

http://www.budvar.cz/en/o-nas/predstaveni.html http://www.budvar.cz/en/o-nas/znacka-budweiser-budvar.html
Tojo72
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Posted: Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 02:29 AM UTC
Spruebrothers sells coke,pepsi,and mountain dew boxes from a company called real models,I wonder if they are officially licensed ??
bulivyf
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Posted: Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 03:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Spruebrothers sells coke,pepsi,and mountain dew boxes from a company called real models,I wonder if they are officially licensed ??



I think that this It’s not your business. Thanks to this clever opinion next modeler cannot buy this boxes because I ended produce.
Maybe you can buy now from trumpeter