hello all
I'm looking for information about the M60 AVLB in Vietnam.
- pictures, can't find any.
- units ?
- when and where they are there?
thank's for any response.
Thomas
Hosted by Darren Baker
M60 AVLB
Thomas_
Joined: January 10, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 09:30 AM UTC
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 10:28 AM UTC
I'm assuming you're looking for detailed pictures of the M60 AVLB, because a google image search of M60 AVLB brings up a number of pictures. I unfortunately don't know of any from my usual resources.
The AVLB was organic to the HHC of any tank Battalion in the US Army. I'm sure they were additional units attached to higher commands, and perhaps even to specialized units, but there were not AVLB units. The M60 AVLB was one of only two M60 types to be fielded in Southeast Asia as well, along with the M728 CEV. So basically any US Army Tank Battalion (at least under TOE 17-35) after 1965. I'm sure there were exceptions (units in Europe during Vietnam were notoriously understrength to provide replacements and equipment to the war effort), but they should have been present in successor organizations thereafter at the same command level (battalion, and likely at other places in the TOE above that).
This also appears to have changed under the modular force structure (I have no idea where the AVLBs are now), so this could have changed between 1973 and 2001 as well (and likely did). They were replaced by the M1 AVLB in 2001.
EDIT- It appears that by the time the Force XXI TOE series had come into play, these were grouped in Assault and Obstacle Platoons, Engineer Companies (TOE 5-337L), Divisional Engineer Battalions (TOE 5-335F). These utilized the M1 AVLB though. So sometime between 1973 and the introduction of the M1 AVLB (which goes into production in 1999) the organization shifted the AVLBs out of the Battalion HHCs and put them at Division level as an engineer asset.
The AVLB was organic to the HHC of any tank Battalion in the US Army. I'm sure they were additional units attached to higher commands, and perhaps even to specialized units, but there were not AVLB units. The M60 AVLB was one of only two M60 types to be fielded in Southeast Asia as well, along with the M728 CEV. So basically any US Army Tank Battalion (at least under TOE 17-35) after 1965. I'm sure there were exceptions (units in Europe during Vietnam were notoriously understrength to provide replacements and equipment to the war effort), but they should have been present in successor organizations thereafter at the same command level (battalion, and likely at other places in the TOE above that).
This also appears to have changed under the modular force structure (I have no idea where the AVLBs are now), so this could have changed between 1973 and 2001 as well (and likely did). They were replaced by the M1 AVLB in 2001.
EDIT- It appears that by the time the Force XXI TOE series had come into play, these were grouped in Assault and Obstacle Platoons, Engineer Companies (TOE 5-337L), Divisional Engineer Battalions (TOE 5-335F). These utilized the M1 AVLB though. So sometime between 1973 and the introduction of the M1 AVLB (which goes into production in 1999) the organization shifted the AVLBs out of the Battalion HHCs and put them at Division level as an engineer asset.
newfish
Joined: June 23, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 12:01 PM UTC
i think ive gots some photos of this beast il look now bud
=]
=]
majjanelson
Joined: December 14, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 03:25 PM UTC
Thomas,
I can't help you with Vietnam era pics, but we have M60 AVLBs at our training site here in SC. What details are you looking for? I will try to provide you with pics as much as I'm allowed to. Just let me know.
Joe - I was an Engineer PLT LDR in the SC NG during the 80s and I reorganized my PLT from a Ribbon Bridge to an Assault & Barrier TO&E (J series) around 86-87. This change moved the CEVs & AVLBs from the CO's HQ PLT to the A&B PLT. The Guard then began the Engineer Restructure Initiative (ERI) during the early 90s, and we changed from a separate EN CO supporting our Mech BDE to an EN BN in 93. CEVs & AVLBs were organized in each Line CO in Assault & Obstacle PLTs. We have yet to receive any M1 AVLBs even though the BDE has had M1A1s since 91 or so (L series).
I can't help you with Vietnam era pics, but we have M60 AVLBs at our training site here in SC. What details are you looking for? I will try to provide you with pics as much as I'm allowed to. Just let me know.
Joe - I was an Engineer PLT LDR in the SC NG during the 80s and I reorganized my PLT from a Ribbon Bridge to an Assault & Barrier TO&E (J series) around 86-87. This change moved the CEVs & AVLBs from the CO's HQ PLT to the A&B PLT. The Guard then began the Engineer Restructure Initiative (ERI) during the early 90s, and we changed from a separate EN CO supporting our Mech BDE to an EN BN in 93. CEVs & AVLBs were organized in each Line CO in Assault & Obstacle PLTs. We have yet to receive any M1 AVLBs even though the BDE has had M1A1s since 91 or so (L series).
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
KitMaker: 487 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Joe - I was an Engineer PLT LDR in the SC NG during the 80s and I reorganized my PLT from a Ribbon Bridge to an Assault & Barrier TO&E (J series) around 86-87. This change moved the CEVs & AVLBs from the CO's HQ PLT to the A&B PLT. The Guard then began the Engineer Restructure Initiative (ERI) during the early 90s, and we changed from a separate EN CO supporting our Mech BDE to an EN BN in 93. CEVs & AVLBs were organized in each Line CO in Assault & Obstacle PLTs. We have yet to receive any M1 AVLBs even though the BDE has had M1A1s since 91 or so (L series).
That would make sense. Its interesting that these assets shifted from Battalion level to so high up the food chain. Are you still with the SC NG? It would make sense in a way that you still hadn't received M1 AVLBs if that were the case (as if one needed any additional excuses from what I've found in my research about how quickly such changes are affected throughout).
You wouldn't by any chance still happen to have the TOE documentation would you? Is it unclassified? TOEs are a sort of hobby of mine in of themselves, so I'd be interested in seeing them if you did and it was possible. Thanks for the info regardless, I appreciate the corrections.
majjanelson
Joined: December 14, 2006
KitMaker: 1,355 posts
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Posted: Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:00 AM UTC
Thomas,
Have you looked at Prime Portal?
M60 AVLB on Prime Portal
Joe - Yes, I'm still drilling with the SCARNG (SC Army NG), and I have until MAR2011 when I'll reach my Mandatory Removal Date. I'll look and see if I still have or can get a copy of the J & L series MTOEs. Hopefully they've been declassed.
Jeff
Have you looked at Prime Portal?
M60 AVLB on Prime Portal
Joe - Yes, I'm still drilling with the SCARNG (SC Army NG), and I have until MAR2011 when I'll reach my Mandatory Removal Date. I'll look and see if I still have or can get a copy of the J & L series MTOEs. Hopefully they've been declassed.
Jeff
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Joe - Yes, I'm still drilling with the SCARNG (SC Army NG), and I have until MAR2011 when I'll reach my Mandatory Removal Date. I'll look and see if I still have or can get a copy of the J & L series MTOEs. Hopefully they've been declassed.
Jeff
Thanks for checking into it, even if it comes to nothing or they can't be released. I appreciate the effort.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:37 AM UTC
We had two AVLBs in a tank battalion (1977-1980). They were dogs. The ones I had in Combat Support Company, 3/64 Armor in Schweinfurt were on M-48 hulls. Double dogs, I got M-60 chassis which were just dogs. The 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment (1980-1984) we initially had them in the squadron then (miracle of miracles) we transferred them to the Engineer Company, I was a very happy squadron XO when they departed the motor pool. Now, the M-1 series AVLB is known as the Wolverine. This has been an on and off again program from the start. They obviously produced some and assigned them to the five active duty heavy divisions. But, I do not know where the issuance program went from there. Can someone with more current information comment on the situation? 
toadman1
Vendor
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Posted: Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:40 AM UTC
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 06:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWe had two AVLBs in a tank battalion (1977-1980). They were dogs. The ones I had in Combat Support Company, 3/64 Armor in Schweinfurt were on M-48 hulls.
Small world. I was across town at Ledward in 2/39FA as one of the first FISTers 78-79.
I'll be darned. There were two arty battalions there - - I seem to recall the other was 1/10 FA. Did Abrams have 2/39?
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 06:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Now, the M-1 series AVLB is known as the Wolverine. This has been an on and off again program from the start. They obviously produced some and assigned them to the five active duty heavy divisions. But, I do not know where the issuance program went from there. Can someone with more current information comment on the situation?
It looks like the Wolverine program has been cancelled and replaced by the Joint Assault Bridge program ...
More information about the JAB from Army.mil :
http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/07/24/11201-design-of-joint-assault-bridge-still-in-test-phase/
Frenchy
Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:57 AM UTC
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:55 PM UTC
Another one (I'm not sure whether it's a M60 chassis or a M48 one....)
from http://blackhorse.dartmouth.edu/dcompany
Frenchy
from http://blackhorse.dartmouth.edu/dcompany
Frenchy
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI'll be darned. There were two arty battalions there - - I seem to recall the other was 1/10 FA. Did Abrams have 2/39?
Oh yeah, in all his weirdness. Glad I only spent 8 months there. Of course, about 6 of that was in the field. We also had 1 & 2/30 INF, along with 3/7CAV. It was kind of crowded.
Schweinfurt was quite the place. And I totally agree that the the arty guys spent more time in the field than the armor battalions. I sent a bunch of my FOs to 2/39 when the FIST started up. A great concept and one long overdue in implementation. I went to 1/30 to be the S-3 very late in my tour. Interesting.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It is an M60 AVLB. Note the size of the rear fender sponson box the soldier is standing on. On an M60 chassis, it is a relatively large box, almost the height of the air cleaner box. On an M48 chassis, it was a much smaller, shorter box.Another one (I'm not sure whether it's a M60 chassis or a M48 one....)
from http://blackhorse.dartmouth.edu/dcompany
Frenchy
Tankrider
Joined: October 07, 2002
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Posted: Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
They obviously produced some and assigned them to the five active duty heavy divisions. But, I do not know where the issuance program went from there. Can someone with more current information comment on the situation?
DJ,
Here is what I knew from a couple years (pre-OIF) back on the fielding of Wolverines... Basically III Corps (1CD, 4ID, 3ACR) were fielded the Wolverine, like the M1A2SEP & Bradley A3, as they were envisioned as the "counterattack" Corps, that would the response to any large scale conventional attack... The rest of the heavy force (1AD, 1ID, 2ID, 3ID) was to "hold the line" with M1A1HC/AIM, Brad A2 ODS & AVLBs... This fielding plan has probably been updated since 2000... I am not sure where the Army Modularity Plan pushed the AVLBs to since 2004, as I know that 3ID turned theirs in in 2004 when the Engineer Battalions became Brigade Special Troop Battalions: another great idea that I will not discuss here...
Make sense???
John
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It is an M60 AVLB. Note the size of the rear fender sponson box the soldier is standing on. On an M60 chassis, it is a relatively large box, almost the height of the air cleaner box. On an M48 chassis, it was a much smaller, shorter box.
Thanks for making things clearer Rob !
Frenchy
badger66
Joined: April 09, 2005
KitMaker: 251 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 21, 2008 - 02:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextNow, the M-1 series AVLB is known as the Wolverine. This has been an on and off again program from the start. They obviously produced some and assigned them to the five active duty heavy divisions. But, I do not know where the issuance program went from there. Can someone with more current information comment on the situation?
It looks like the Wolverine program has been cancelled and replaced by the Joint Assault Bridge program ...
More information about the JAB from Army.mil :
http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/07/24/11201-design-of-joint-assault-bridge-still-in-test-phase/
Frenchy
The 36th Eng Bde here has a number of Wolverines assigned to the 20th Eng Bn
Thomas_
Joined: January 10, 2006
KitMaker: 63 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:34 PM UTC
hello all
thank you for your response.
@newfish
did you you find something?
@white4
I've only the M48 in action
@ majjanelson
yes, I've had a look on that
@Franchy
special thanks for the nam pictures
question: I'm right that the tank is a M60A1 not a M60?
in a few days (weeks) I can start with building.
cheers
Thomas
thank you for your response.
@newfish
did you you find something?
@white4
I've only the M48 in action
@ majjanelson
yes, I've had a look on that
@Franchy
special thanks for the nam pictures
question: I'm right that the tank is a M60A1 not a M60?
in a few days (weeks) I can start with building.
cheers
Thomas
Thomas_
Joined: January 10, 2006
KitMaker: 63 posts
Armorama: 57 posts
Posted: Friday, November 21, 2008 - 09:00 PM UTC
hello all
what I'm asking for is:
what chasis-type is it?
on Franchy's picture, there are 2 shock-absorber in the front.
M60 have only one.
Thomas
what I'm asking for is:
what chasis-type is it?
on Franchy's picture, there are 2 shock-absorber in the front.
M60 have only one.
Thomas
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