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“Tobruk” style Bunker from Mk35
exer
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 6,048 posts
Armorama: 4,619 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 09:35 AM UTC
MK35 Editions have announced a new diorama accessory in 1/35 scale, a “Tobruk” style Atlantic Wall Bunker.
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If you have comments or questions please post them here.
Thanks!
Link to Item
If you have comments or questions please post them here.
Thanks!
CMOT
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 09:46 AM UTC
Looks the part Pat and it's simplicity itself.
youngc
Joined: June 05, 2007
KitMaker: 2,166 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 08:41 PM UTC
I think this is a 'Panzerstellung' VF67 bunker for a captured French Renault FT turret. It is a variant of the original 'Tobruk' type bunker.
Looks nice,
Chas
Looks nice,
Chas
cyberdyne-systems
Joined: April 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3 posts
Armorama: 2 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 08:10 AM UTC
Hello, it's a illegal copy of a tobrouk from Hobbies, a french TM, reference 35104, manufactured in 1990
NickZour
Joined: May 01, 2008
KitMaker: 1,437 posts
Armorama: 168 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 08:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I think...captured French Renault FT turret...
This is a PZ II turret and i like the whole thing VERY much
Nick
youngc
Joined: June 05, 2007
KitMaker: 2,166 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 12:29 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello, it's a illegal copy of a tobrouk from Hobbies, a french TM, reference 35104, manufactured in 1990
I can't find any evidence of this? Do you have a link to the product in question?
Quoted Text
This is a PZ II turret...
So it is. That makes this product a 'Panzerstellung' VF67 bunker for a PZ II turret. I don't know much about German armour, or French for that matter. Always willing to learn though.
Chas
cyberdyne-systems
Joined: April 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3 posts
Armorama: 2 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:26 PM UTC
Hobbies is the only manufacturer who work with the french museums for quality of production, and copy the reel bunker in 35th and 72 th, houses, accessories...
exer
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 6,048 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 11:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hobbies is the only manufacturer who work with the french museums for quality of production, and copy the reel bunker in 35th and 72 th, houses, accessories...
Anyone is free to copy a real structure. If you have a link to the Hobbies product or a pic of the original kit you claim MK 35 copied please show us.
I have written to MK35 to pass on your comments
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 01:09 AM UTC
I admit to being a touch confused at all this. As many of the bunkers are still in Normandy and anyone with a camera, notebook and measuring tape, can measure them out and if they are sufficiently talented, can produce a model of them (commercial or private).
Just HOW anyone can copyright a 60+ year-old military forification is REALLY beyond my understanding. Nor can I imagine the French Government holding copyright either?
Just HOW anyone can copyright a 60+ year-old military forification is REALLY beyond my understanding. Nor can I imagine the French Government holding copyright either?
newfish
Joined: June 23, 2008
KitMaker: 2,329 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 01:20 AM UTC
no its not illegal academy copyied tamiya with their m113
anyway they havnt copied it exactly so i dont know why your moaning at it!
anyway they havnt copied it exactly so i dont know why your moaning at it!
Belt_Fed
Joined: February 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,325 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 01:53 AM UTC
is it not illegal to make castings of figures and sell them? (Purchasing a Dragon figure, mould it, pour resin in the mold, and bam an exact copy of the figure for example) Perhaps this company did the same?
This actually looks like an interesting product. i did not know the germans put a tank turret on a bunker. Doesnt really make sense though...
This actually looks like an interesting product. i did not know the germans put a tank turret on a bunker. Doesnt really make sense though...
exer
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 6,048 posts
Armorama: 4,619 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 04:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
no its not illegal academy copyied tamiya with their m113
anyway they havnt copied it exactly so i dont know why your moaning at it!
Quoted Text
is it not illegal to make castings of figures and sell them? (Purchasing a Dragon figure, mould it, pour resin in the mold, and bam an exact copy of the figure for example) Perhaps this company did the same?
Yes it is illegal to copy someones work and pretend it's your own and make a profit from it.
We have no proof that MK35 did that. I doubt it. I have written to them and asked them if this is the case and I expect a reply tomorrow after the weekend.
From my reading of the post he seems to be saying that MK 35 have no right to produce a model of the bunker because Hobbies have already done one.
Quoted Text
Hobbies is the only manufacturer who work with the french museums for quality of production, and copy the reel bunker in 35th
This may be a problem in translation, if not then as Jim says anyone can take measurements of a sixty year old bunker, make a master, produce a model and sell kits of it.
Let's wait to hear what MK35 say.
exer
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 6,048 posts
Armorama: 4,619 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 04:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
This actually looks like an interesting product. I did not know the germans put a tank turret on a bunker. Doesnt really make sense though...
Jon- the body of the bunker would normally be buried so that only the turret would show above ground level. the germans did this withis with turrets of obsolete tanks and even with Panther turrets also
Belt_Fed
Joined: February 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 11:57 AM UTC
is there anything the Germans didnt think of durring WWII? 
exer
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 6,048 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 15, 2008 - 02:03 AM UTC
I have recieved an answer from Viviane DEYGAS of MK35
It’s not forbidden to reproduce a bunker existing or having existed ! If a manufacturer has already commercialised this type of material, he should know that the Atlantic Wall bunkers are not the exclusivity of a person. When we choose to create a specific bunker we can do nothing to make it different from another one already commercialised. On the other hand we don’t need to copy the products of other manufacturers as we think having ideas and projects enough - unpretentious - in our “ideas box”.
It’s not forbidden to reproduce a bunker existing or having existed ! If a manufacturer has already commercialised this type of material, he should know that the Atlantic Wall bunkers are not the exclusivity of a person. When we choose to create a specific bunker we can do nothing to make it different from another one already commercialised. On the other hand we don’t need to copy the products of other manufacturers as we think having ideas and projects enough - unpretentious - in our “ideas box”.
martyncrowther
Joined: September 12, 2007
KitMaker: 1,548 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 15, 2008 - 02:57 AM UTC
It looks really nice and I have got to get this to go with my US rangers normandy .
.
staff_Jim
PublisherJoined: December 15, 2001
KitMaker: 12,571 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 06:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I have received an answer from Viviane DEYGAS of MK35
It’s not forbidden to reproduce a bunker existing or having existed ! If a manufacturer has already commercialised this type of material, he should know that the Atlantic Wall bunkers are not the exclusivity of a person. When we choose to create a specific bunker we can do nothing to make it different from another one already commercialised. On the other hand we don’t need to copy the products of other manufacturers as we think having ideas and projects enough - unpretentious - in our “ideas box”.
To MK35 and our readers,
We have been provided photos of what is purported to be the original Hobbies release of the Tobruk bunker. There are distinct similarities between this mold and your own. Of course several things could account for this;
1. It is the same mold/master and you now own the rights to it.
2. It is of the same exact structure and both sculptors were excruciatingly careful reproducing every small detail (damaged areas particularly).
3. It is an unlicensed duplicate of the Hobbies release.
I can only assume that eventually these photos will be posted and everyone will be able to make their own conclusions, so I would hope you will answer any doubts as to the copyright ownership of the master mold you used to make this structure. If you cannot provide sufficient evidence there is not much this site can say or do, however your reputation with the modeling community at large may be at risk if you do not.
Thank you,
Jim
Hostage4
Joined: October 21, 2006
KitMaker: 4 posts
Armorama: 3 posts
Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 05:17 AM UTC
I am a regular Mk35 kits buyer and like to visit their website often. Besides that, I get their newsletter with new products and offers.
I really think they made their own master and mould to make that kit, that likes terrific by the way, as more of their other buildings (including some other bunkers) they made before. I specially remember a farm with wall (b018) that I am longing to order and with a very nice wall texture that must require a lot of work mastering, so why won't they be able to master a little bunker of Normandy wall?
Or the point is that as Mr. X made that model of bunker no one could produce that same model in the future?
We got too much Pz. IV ausf. anything from lots of producers that just put the choice in the hand of the modeller.
My 2...
Regards all
M. C.
I really think they made their own master and mould to make that kit, that likes terrific by the way, as more of their other buildings (including some other bunkers) they made before. I specially remember a farm with wall (b018) that I am longing to order and with a very nice wall texture that must require a lot of work mastering, so why won't they be able to master a little bunker of Normandy wall?
Or the point is that as Mr. X made that model of bunker no one could produce that same model in the future?
We got too much Pz. IV ausf. anything from lots of producers that just put the choice in the hand of the modeller.
My 2...
Regards all
M. C.
jba
Joined: November 04, 2005
KitMaker: 1,845 posts
Armorama: 777 posts
Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 06:59 AM UTC
Come on that's gotta be a joke.
Every French guy buying some magazines since some time should know that "39/45 magazine" published an enormous quantity of German Bunkers plans in the late 80's (I still have them in my cellar) and that those plans should then be available to any half blind researcher.
And then, it's honestly of a quite poor competence to scratch build such bunkers. Furthermore, any person owning a car or even some feet can freely walk the coast from Dunkerque to Nice and find quite a few of those items littering the French beaches.
In the light of the much more original stuff MK 35 is now doing, I don't see them destroying their "image de marque" with something as lame as copying a bunker model from another company, that's just pure logic.
Every French guy buying some magazines since some time should know that "39/45 magazine" published an enormous quantity of German Bunkers plans in the late 80's (I still have them in my cellar) and that those plans should then be available to any half blind researcher.
And then, it's honestly of a quite poor competence to scratch build such bunkers. Furthermore, any person owning a car or even some feet can freely walk the coast from Dunkerque to Nice and find quite a few of those items littering the French beaches.
In the light of the much more original stuff MK 35 is now doing, I don't see them destroying their "image de marque" with something as lame as copying a bunker model from another company, that's just pure logic.
exer
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 6,048 posts
Armorama: 4,619 posts
Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 07:29 AM UTC
Here are some photos Jacques sent me showing his original master, the Hobbies kit and side by side with Mk35 piece showing similarities.
Here is MK35 reply
I hope both parties can sort this out. As for Armorama we just bring you the news.
Here is MK35 replyQuoted Text
Hi Pat,
Here is our answer to the last comment of the person who makes us loosing our time. Please post it.
We don't accept that someone tarnish the excellent reputation of MK35 by defamatory purposes. We never show our working way but in order to close the "meeting" making us loosing our time here are some pictures showing the master of our tobruk when it was in progress, so everyone will be able to make their own conclusions. Note that this message will be the last from our part.
Best Regards
Viviane
MK35 Editions
I hope both parties can sort this out. As for Armorama we just bring you the news.
highway70
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 322 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 07:08 PM UTC
CMOT
Editor-in-ChiefJoined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 07:38 PM UTC
Nice link thank you Highway.
sniperbait66
Joined: October 21, 2008
KitMaker: 7 posts
Armorama: 5 posts
Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:04 AM UTC
Fellas and gals,
The so-called "mock-up" of the questionable kit is a poor attempt at hashing together something to give themselves credibility. As the designer and mouldmaker for Kurton Products, and other building kit makers, I can tell you that the so-called master in the photographs was slapped together, and in no way could function as a mould master.
Firstly, look closely at the construction. It is backwards. When making a master of a bunker your master will be just like the mould. inside out. you build a bunker using miniature boards to obtain the proper texture of a poured concrete bunker, which means pouring your plaster INTO a hollow, board lined master. When the plaster sets, you can then demould the "positive" master. This is then glued to a sheet of glass or plastic, "dams" of cardboard or wood are then built around the master and the rubber mouldmaking material poured in.
After the rubber is cured, you remove the mould dams and peel the rubber from your master. The photographs published here only prove that MK35 have no idea how to make a master. Thus proving the allegation that they copied the Tobruk kit from the actual kit by reverse moulding.
Although the exact reproduction of the battle damage from the original kit is proof enough of their plagerism. They did alter the tank turret though.
FYI, there can be NO copyright on reproductions in miniature of historical items or items of nature. I paid a nice sum to an attorney to learn that, when I began designing kits. My cobblestone streets have been reverse moulded all over the place, and sold at model meets and shows. Too bad for me.
Sniperbait66
The so-called "mock-up" of the questionable kit is a poor attempt at hashing together something to give themselves credibility. As the designer and mouldmaker for Kurton Products, and other building kit makers, I can tell you that the so-called master in the photographs was slapped together, and in no way could function as a mould master.
Firstly, look closely at the construction. It is backwards. When making a master of a bunker your master will be just like the mould. inside out. you build a bunker using miniature boards to obtain the proper texture of a poured concrete bunker, which means pouring your plaster INTO a hollow, board lined master. When the plaster sets, you can then demould the "positive" master. This is then glued to a sheet of glass or plastic, "dams" of cardboard or wood are then built around the master and the rubber mouldmaking material poured in.
After the rubber is cured, you remove the mould dams and peel the rubber from your master. The photographs published here only prove that MK35 have no idea how to make a master. Thus proving the allegation that they copied the Tobruk kit from the actual kit by reverse moulding.
Although the exact reproduction of the battle damage from the original kit is proof enough of their plagerism. They did alter the tank turret though.
FYI, there can be NO copyright on reproductions in miniature of historical items or items of nature. I paid a nice sum to an attorney to learn that, when I began designing kits. My cobblestone streets have been reverse moulded all over the place, and sold at model meets and shows. Too bad for me.
Sniperbait66
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